My good friend is opening up a restaurant in a few weeks. He put an add on craigslist for "waiter" positions and had 250 people show up for interviews. He was overwhelmed by the amount of people that showed up. While collecting resumes he noticed that one of the applicants was a 2010 Columbia University econ major. My friend called me soon after to let me know. Sadly, the Columbia alumni was not called for the second round of interviews.
For those that don't know, Columbia University is an Ivy League school, one of the best out there. It's pretty pathetic when a econ grad from last year has to apply to a $10 per hour position where his peers will be either high school drop outs or community college superheroes. Now I commend this person for doing what he can to earn some money. At the end of the day, work is work. However, the dismal state for college graduates is an indictment of not only how poor the US economy has become, but also how diluted the value of a college degree is in this environment.
Columbia University is mighty expensive. Tuition for 2010-2011 is $41k per year. Throw in fees, books, room and board and the estimated cost for 9 months is $56k.
http://www.college.columbia.edu/bulletin/feesandexpenses.php
God forbid these poor bastards take out loans to go to this Ivy League institution. Bottom line is $200,000 for a 4 year degree, even from Columbia, frankly is just not worth it. I hope the waiter guy has some luck getting a job soon.
Subprime JD: A blog dedicated to exposing the law school and higher education scam.
Subprime, while not disputing the economy sucks and college degrees have been watered down, one Columbia grad is an anecdote. Two Columbia grads is a problem.
ReplyDeleteThe guy may just be "unfocused," like the Yalie I used to work next to.
Or maybe he's pursuing a graduate degree and needs to work, but doesn't want something that's too demanding and may distract from his studies.
ReplyDeleteSubprime, your conclusion may be right, but your analysis is myopic and fails to assert counter-arguments that may provide plausible alternative explanations.
Anon @ 11;18 AM said
ReplyDelete"Subprime, your conclusion may be right, but your analysis is myopic and fails to assert counter-arguments that may provide plausible alternative explanations."
Just throwing out a anectode. There are plenty of them if you look around enough. Of the 250 applicants the majority of them had college degrees.
Just wait as the economy continue to deteriorate and the jobs picture darkens further while leveraged college grads enter a scary new world. It's only a matter of time until these people start getting pissed off.
Subprime
Just curious. I wonder if the Columbia grad has a B.A. or B.S.? It's my understanding that a B.A. is frowned upon within the econ/finance community, as it's less quantitatively rigorous.
ReplyDelete@127:
ReplyDeleteDepends on the institution. At many (most?) places, a straight-up math or statistics major earns a B.A., so I think concluding that it's not as "quantitatively rigorous" would be a really stupid move by the HR people. Of course, wouldn't be the first time they're driven by misguided myths.
I have no problem believing this article. We're really created a bottleneck of talented, "should be hired" young graduates who really have no place in the economy. I graduated before the recession and the best job offer I got was around 30k, and that was coming from the top tier of a top 15-20ish school. I know honors students from really good schools that worked jobs that don't require a degree (retail, restauranteering). The picture would be far more dismal if my generation didn't jump back into school when the crappy economy revealed itself. And when they jump back into school, hiring standards rise across the board. If MBAs are a dime a dozen, why would any bank or consulting firm look at hiring someone with only an econ degree?
As a person with a BA in economics (1980's) from an average state college in Pa. (not Penn State) I can say that grades are the most important factor in getting an interview. The school helps, but if you do not have an overall GPA of 3.5/4.0, you might as well have not gone to college. The U.S. Navy only allows people with at least that overall GPA to take its officer screening test. So I would say to anyone going to college: Do not spend the money after your first year, if your overall GPA is lower than a 3.5/4.0, because it is just wasting money. I went to a cheap school so it did not matter to me. But, if you have to go into debt it just is not worth it.
ReplyDeleteI want to be on your side. Truly I do. But when you frame your posts with such rank snobbery, it's a real turn off. Not a great way to endear potential
ReplyDeletecomrades to the bludgeoning spiral hole occurring in America—and I don’t just mean the “higher education” scam. You said:
"It's pretty pathetic when an econ grad from last year has to apply to a $10 per hour position where his peers will be either high school drop outs or community college superheroes."
Wow. Really? Since when did it become okay to judge someone on the basis of where they went to school or if they’ve even gone to school at all? You, and other bloggers out there, isolate yourselves by pigeon holing yourself into this elitist corner. EVERYONE, no matter their "institutionalized educational path" deserves a decent job, wage, access to health care, and the ability to live a life that doesn't work them into the ground, thereby killing them.
This right doesn't simply extend to American's--but to every fucking person on this planet. We have a long way to go, no doubt. But as long as you, and others like you, frame this issue in a way as to ostracize the majority of American's, you will lose this fight. A revolution, and its accompanying resistance to a dominant paradigm, is fought for many different reasons and is extremely dynamic.
But at the end of the day there is always a common thread—injustice. Unfortunately, I don't feel like you grasp the gross injustices that exist in this country when you actually uphold the tenets you purport to despise.
Your blog merely perpetuates the idea of the “have and have nots”—a social Darwinism that justifies people being left in the cold and without any fucking hope. Awesome.
You have so much potential Subprime, but when I read some of your posts—I feel like you aren’t a champion of revolutionary change as one would suspect, but instead you are advocating for a system that guarantees the same fucking structure that brought us to our current circumstance: no sustainable jobs, corporate whoredom, no accountability from our “elected pretenders” and the overall maintenance of a status quo that is KILLING US and our planet.
Sometimes I feel so connected to something real while reading your posts and Nando's, and then I'll happen upon some snobbish anecdote, like the one above, and you completely lose me. I suspect you will lose many others too. Solidarity is key SB—but in order to have this you need to connect with people and so far it ain’t happening.
Subprime responding to the upset reader:
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I can't post comments under my username, hoping to get this fixed soon.
First off lets go back to what I said:
"It's pretty pathetic when an econ grad from last year has to apply to a $10 per hour position where his peers will be either high school drop outs or community college superheroes."
Perhaps I should have put in Columbia before the word econ grad. The point I was trying to make here was the fact that someone who spent over 200k to go to an elite school is trying to get a job with the same people that DIDNT spend 200k getting a degree. And its not just the money spent on Columbia, but also the Ivy League status of the school. It goes to show just how "special" Columbia can be in this new world. The point was to bag on Columbia and not the other "lesser" qualified applicants.
Perhaps the use of the term community college "superhero" did come off as snobbery. Personally I crack up with the word superhero and was just trying to have some fun.
Later on you said,
"Wow. Really? Since when did it become okay to judge someone on the basis of where they went to school or if they’ve even gone to school at all? You, and other bloggers out there, isolate yourselves by pigeon holing yourself into this elitist corner. EVERYONE, no matter their "institutionalized educational path" deserves a decent job, wage, access to health care, and the ability to live a life that doesn't work them into the ground, thereby killing them."
I've consistently told stories of people that DIDNT go to college and became successful. My dad is a primary example. He can barely speak english and finished up to 2nd grade in Greece before dropping out and going to work by the age of 10. He came to the USA worked his ass off, dedicated himself to his business and with a bit of good luck made a fortune. If anyone has seen the american dream come to fruition in life, IT IS ME! I watched my dad become successful without ANY "institutionalized educational path."
subprime responding, part II:
ReplyDeleteWhat pains me today is just how difficult it is for us to replicate what these past opportunities. Just yesterday me and Nando spoke on the phone for hours discussing how wealth is so damn polarized with the top 1% gaining so much of the wealth. How can a small business compete against these juggernaut corporations that pay an effective tax rate of 6 percent? This is cronyism and corporatism squeezing the life out of the "little" people.
And finally you said,
"But at the end of the day there is always a common thread—injustice. Unfortunately, I don't feel like you grasp the gross injustices that exist in this country when you actually uphold the tenets you purport to despise."
This comment is blatantly incorrect. All I've done on this blog is point out the lies and obfuscations taking place by the powers that be. I’ve devoted hundreds of hours of my time trying to open readers eyes to the secrets of banking and our money system. I've been sounding the alarm bells regarding numerous threats to the current economic system. And most importantly, I've been warning younger americans about the perils of the student loan. Going back to our original example, the high school grads or community college students applying for the waiter job DON'T HAVE 100K plus of nondischargeable student loans. These loans are pure slavery and god forbid you go into default because the interest, penalties and fees will skyrocket, making full repayment a pipe dream.
The one thing we can do with these blogs is warn and potentially, give potential college and law student applicants the best information before they make the decision and sign the dotted line that will potentially enslave them to a life of debt servitude.
On a final note, I know full well how rotten the current system is and can't wait until the day that there are millions of us standing outside of capitol hill, demanding that the pigs inside get out. This wealth transfer from the "bottom" 99% to the top .1% is absurd and needs to come to an end. But we all know what happens when wealth is too concentrated in the hands of few while so many others are sitting their with empty pockets.
Feel free to email me at darkktrader@gmail if you wish to discuss this topic further
I wouldn't worry too much about the Columbia grad. I'm sure he'll land on his feet. He definitely has more options than most of us JDs.
ReplyDelete"There are no examples of industrial economies surviving chronic shortfalls of key commodities — especially ones that have no readily available substitutes. Quite the opposite: we have the stunning example of the USSR, where the peak in domestic crude oil production precipitated a financial collapse and a political dissolution just a few years later, events which were followed by a severe and prolonged economic decline. It was only by integrating with the global economy, which had plentiful resources at the time, that the Russian economy was able to recover. No such rescues will be available when the shortfalls become global."
ReplyDeletehttp://cluborlov.blogspot.com/
The economy is turning around though, right?!?!
ReplyDeletehttp://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/disturbing-message-about-the-legal-job-market-from-columbia-law-school/
Back on September 23, 2009, Above the Law reported that Columbia Law School was advising its students to attend the undergraduate job fair:
"We all know about the difficult legal job market facing current law students. But is it so bad that J.D. candidates would have been better off never going to law school in the first place?
At Columbia Law School — the fourth best law school in the country according to U.S. News — is suggesting that job seekers crash the undergraduate job fair. A tipster puts it this way:
Recruiting is bad this year, as you know, but CLS is just highlighting it by recommending we attend an UNDERGRADUATE career fair. It says it is open to all, and that is true, but when you look at the actual companies and organizations coming to the career fair the vast majority require only a bachelors, and none want a law degree specifically. Great to know that $200k+ and 3 years of lost opportunity cost can leave you in the same position as if you never went in the first place."
club orlov is pretty hardcore neo-malthusian shit. I'm hoping for the best outcome. Here's a bright light coming out of MIT.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/mit-researchers-create-refillable-electric-vehicle-batteries-2295719.html
Subprime
The ABA meets in August to consider accrediting a foreign law school:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleFriendlyAL.jsp?id=1202494858380
"Lehman has long hoped to make the Peking University School of Transnational Law (STL) the first law school outside the United States to be accredited by the ABA, which would allow its graduates to take the bar exam in any U.S. state."
Non-Chinese, foreign students attending this US law school in China must pay a tuition rate about 10 times that of Chinese students, but still much cheaper than the tuition rates of most US law schools in the U.S.