Thursday, June 2, 2011

Will TTT superheros oppose the battle against the law school scam?

I've noticed fierce opposition to the recently filed class action lawsuit against Thomas Jefferman Brothers School of Law. I refer to TJSL as Thomas Jefferman Brothers because it will be the first law school to implode as a result of the numerous lawsuits that will be filed against it. Think Lehman Brothers which was the pin that popped the fraud street bubble.

Anyways I fully expect hundreds of TTT superheros (read: successful TTT grads) that are afraid that these lawsuits will hurt their reputation as their alma maters are getting sued for fraud will come out in fierce opposition to these lawsuits. Just think about the jokes that will be flying around at legal conferences as these TTT judges and mediators will be laughed at by their Tier 1 colleagues. Not that there was anything wrong with being a TTT grad back in the 70's and 80's as there was plenty of legal work to go around. In fact, one of the best litigators that I know is a local TTT grad. But things have changed as the legal market has imploded and recent grads are drowning in student loan debt, being offered $10 per hour gigs. The TTT's got too greedy and now they will pay the price.

Mark my words, more lawsuits are coming. And for all the TTT superheros that oppose the lawsuits out of fear of their reputations being tarnished, imagine what these recent grads are going through. At least you guys have your niches and have established your little ID firms and shitlaw operations. For many recent grads, they are forced to apply to non legal positions just to be able to pay their bills. So for all the TTT superheroes that oppose these lawsuits, just know that momentum is on our side. The question now is whether you decide to be on the side of justice or the side of fraud and greed. I bet a large portion of you cowards will choose the latter as opposed to the former. However, there are plenty of established veteran TTTsuperheros that are in full support of these upcoming lawsuits against the law schools. The battle lines are being drawn.

Peace

31 comments:

  1. "Just think about the jokes that will be flying around at legal conferences as these TTT judges and mediators will be laughed at by their Tier 1 colleagues."

    I'm not trying to be mean, but that statement is just as silly as saying the TTT judges are afraid of being picked on by the jocks and cheerleaders.

    ReplyDelete
  2. You might see graduates of the TTTs being bribed into supporting their fecal alma mater, spewing their crap out on blogs like this one or Nando's; in fact I think Nando has a couple of guys (mostly anonymous) who stand up for the schools even though they don't go to them(!)....there is a Fundamentalist Christian college, PCC*, that is widely hated by its graduates. Many of them post reviews of the school at StudentsReview.com ripping the place sideways, and in response the college actually had the balls to ask graduates to post good reviews of the school on the site! And we know this because one of the negative reviewers mentioned this in their review. Things can get this childish - and they will once the craplawskools begin to suffer the death of 1000 cuts.


    ____
    * Pensacola Christian College; students are watched all the time, cannot leave campus without a note, live under a stringent demerit system, and can be expelled for things they did on holiday breaks. At their own homes. Eric Cartman would do well there, if he were real.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Subprime wrote:

    "At least you guys have your niches and have established your little ID firms and shitlaw operations."

    That comment alone epitomizes you guys' whole problem. You think you're too good to work in Insurance Defense, Personal injury, or the like. Rather than slum it a year or two at one of these "shitlaw operations" and gain some real experience, then parlay that into something better, you'd rather sit back and whine about the lack of legal jobs across the entire spectrum. But what you really mean to say is the cushy jobs in Biglaw are no longer available to kids from schools outside T-14.

    Well, tough shit, pal. The corporations that previously spent millions of dollars a year for hours billed by some dumb shit 1st year associate so he could collect a big, fat salary are over. Companies are cutting costs. What better place to start than largely unnecessary legal expenses? This means fewer full-time positions and more document review jobs. Is this the fault of law schools? You know the answer. You were just too blinded by greed to read the writing on the wall.

    ReplyDelete
  4. FYI I work in plaintiffs pi and the majority of the defense attorneys are pretty unhappy

    ReplyDelete
  5. 9:24,

    Some graduates from top ten law schools cannot find any paid legal work! What does that tell you about the state of the industry?!?!

    http://qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=17577

    Even JDU user and legal "profession" apologist "ChuckDaly" has noted that the industry has changed drastically in the last 15 years:

    ChuckDaly (May 28 - 8:39 pm)

    "Go fuck yourself. I graduated around fifteen years ago, with debt, and I was able to pay it off in five years. The challenges we faced are nothing compared to what is going on right now, not to mention the number of law schools that proliferated after the Clinton administration decide more minorities should be admitted to law school and the anti trust division of his justice department went after the ABA. I was able to leave big law after six months, actually I was asked to leave big law, or maybe told to leave big law, and the financial hit was only around 15k, which after taxes was a car payment. So, I repeat, go fuck yourself."

    ReplyDelete
  6. "That comment alone epitomizes you guys' whole problem. You think you're too good to work in Insurance Defense, Personal injury, or the like."

    I would take a PI job tomorrow for 36k starting salary.

    "Rather than slum it a year or two at one of these "shitlaw operations" and gain some real experience, then parlay that into something better,"

    "Parlaying" is extremely rare. If you've done nothing but bankruptcy or PI or divorce, why would someone bring their commercial claims to you, when there are experienced practitioners yearning for more business?

    "you'd rather sit back and whine about the lack of legal jobs across the entire spectrum. But what you really mean to say is the cushy jobs in Biglaw are no longer available to kids from schools outside T-14."

    No, dope, there really are too few jobs *period.* Low-level clerkships, free internships, public defenders offices, and legal aids are now highly-sought positions. It's not uncommon to find people from '08-'10 still who have never had full-time legal employment and would be thrilled to death to get a full-time job at 30k+ just to break into the field.

    "Is this the fault of law schools?"

    Another straw man. Our problem with law schools has never been that the economy is bad. It's how they have reacted to the changing legal economy and have distorted the legal marketplace to entice class after class and flood the market. Incidentally, this process existed well before the recession.

    "You were just too blinded by greed to read the writing on the wall."

    Yet another straw man. Very few people actually go to law school out of "greed," and in any event, it's not "greed" to expect an investment to at least break even, is it? Especially when the student bears almost all the downside risk?

    ReplyDelete
  7. The law industry has changed and will continue to change. When I started, two tier partnership (i.e. equity partners and non-equity partners)was the new way to takae advantage of young lawyers. Now it's two tier associates (i.e. ones eligible for some type of partnership and ones who will never be eligible for any type of partnership). The problem is both one of over production of lawyers and one of focus on the self at the expense of others. At the point I left private practice six years ago (after 20 years at one firm), it was already clear that the only people who would be hired were law graduates who were perceived to have the ability to bring in clients. Associates who do not live up to that potential after five to six years are let go. At this point, non-equity partners are also let go if they don't have a client base of their own. The last five years I was in private practice, all I ever heard from the rain makers in our firm was "I can get anybody to do the work. We need clients." So, yes there is a problem, but law students have to look inward as well. I have tried to tell numerous undergraduates and their parents what legal practice is really like, that only a few people make a lot of money doing it, and that one should not expect success unless one is able to bring in clients which is very hard to do. Every one of those persons has gone straight to law school because he or she just thinks I'm a bitter old baby boomer who couldn't cut it. I cut it for 20 years until I couldn't stand it anymore. Then, after a series of post-departure failures doing non-legal work, I found an in-house legal job at a small business that I actually like, and I'm happy. The trade off, however, is that I make a lot less money and I'll probably never be able to retire.

    ReplyDelete
  8. "I would take a PI job tomorrow for 36k starting salary."

    Really? Those kind of jobs are plentiful on craigslist. Yes, it might be $13/hr + commission to start. But if you're successful it would easily work out to 36k per year.
    "
    "Parlaying" is extremely rare. If you've done nothing but bankruptcy or PI or divorce, why would someone bring their commercial claims to you, when there are experienced practitioners yearning for more business?"

    Granted, it's easy to get pigeon-holed into one area of law once you've worked it for a number of years. It's this way in every profession that has various specializations within the field, e.g., nursing. But parlaying doesn't necessarily mean that one needs to change the type of law practiced, but move to greener pastures once you have some experience under your belt: more money, better firm, more engaging cases, and so on.

    "It's not uncommon to find people from '08-'10 still who have never had full-time legal employment and would be thrilled to death to get a full-time job at 30k+ just to break into the field."

    Again, really? 30K? They could find a job tomorrow for $14.42/hr. But they won't b/c they'd rather complain.

    "Another straw man. Our problem with law schools has never been that the economy is bad. It's how they have reacted to the changing legal economy and have distorted the legal marketplace to entice class after class and flood the market. Incidentally, this process existed well before the recession."

    This makes absolutely no sense. As long as throngs of students flock to law schools, the schools are going to continue to accept them. Yes, if student loans continue to be readily available, this cycle will never end. But the students are just as much to blame, if not more, than the law schools. If students actually stopped attending then the law schools would have to change their business model. Until that time, why would law schools change? Moreover, it's a historical fact that during tough economic times the interest in graduate/professional schools increases. People like to wait out bad economies in school and hope to come out the other side with more marketable skills.

    "Yet another straw man. Very few people actually go to law school out of "greed," and in any event, it's not "greed" to expect an investment to at least break even, is it? Especially when the student bears almost all the downside risk?"

    Let me guess, most students go to law school in pursuit of justice and equality, the watchwords of dreamers and fools? Please. Most law students are pursuing a legal career that provides lots of money, toys, and all the finer things in life. Of course, most hope to do some good along the way, but it's not their primary concern. What's more, if you guys were so damn altruistic, why didn't you go into social work or something useful?

    ReplyDelete
  9. The anonymous law school shill said:

    "This makes absolutely no sense. As long as throngs of students flock to law schools, the schools are going to continue to accept them. Yes, if student loans continue to be readily available, this cycle will never end. But the students are just as much to blame, if not more, than the law schools. If students actually stopped attending then the law schools would have to change their business model. Until that time, why would law schools change? Moreover, it's a historical fact that during tough economic times the interest in graduate/professional schools increases. People like to wait out bad economies in school and hope to come out the other side with more marketable skills."

    If law grads knew how bad the job market is many of them would never sign up in the first place. When TJSL, a ABA accredited institution, publishes that the average starting salary of its grads employed in "business" is 90k, this only perpetuates the fraud that is taking place. All we ask for is correct information.

    ReplyDelete
  10. There are lots of jobs in the military.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Those kind of jobs are plentiful on craigslist."

    LOL - those jobs all get high-quality applications by the box-full. The entry-level jobs can get applications by the hundreds. One person out of the throng gets the job. With clerkships ending and Biglaw constantly spitting people out, it's not doing a thing to thin out the saturated labor pool.

    Have you talked to a hiring partner/HR staff member/manager lately? I have on multiple occasions. They're getting barred attorneys calling out of the blue asking to work for free. And yes, I actually know people from '09 and '10 who are still applying to places. One just accepted a gig in a different area than his intent for like 35k. Since he wanted to do crim, I'm guessing his salary standards have not dropped since graduation day as far as I know.

    No, many of them cannot find an attorney job for $14.42/hr. Don't believe me? Make up a resume for a median TTT grad with moderate experience and start sending it in to places. See how many call-backs you get on those $36k jobs.

    "As long as throngs of students flock to law schools, the schools are going to continue to accept them. Yes, if student loans continue to be readily available, this cycle will never end. But the students are just as much to blame, if not more, than the law schools. If students actually stopped attending then the law schools would have to change their business model."

    ...which is why it's a problem when the law schools help hide the ball from prospective students. You seem to accept that it's a problem if students have mistaken ideas, but think it makes "absolutely no sense" to find the law schools culpable for purposely helping to foster those mistaken ideas.

    Tell me, do you favor doing away with ALL consumer fraud claims, or is it just this one small segment of the economy?

    "Let me guess, most students go to law school in pursuit of justice and equality, the watchwords of dreamers and fools? Please. Most law students are pursuing a legal career that provides lots of money, toys, and all the finer things in life."

    Everyone I know went to law school because they thought it would a personally-rewarding career choice that was worth the investment. You seem to think that because a small minority of lawyers live the high life (at least on TV), that everyone goes to law school to drive Porsches and bang supermodels.

    It appears your perception of the actual human beings in this field is as bad as your understanding of the legal labor economy.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "LOL - those jobs all get high-quality applications by the box-full. The entry-level jobs can get applications by the hundreds. One person out of the throng gets the job."

    This is why you guys can't find a job. You think you have to find a job for every unemployed law grad in the US. But you don't. All you have to do is find one job, your own.

    Do you really forego applying to jobs b/c you anticipate a high number of applicants that you'll be competing against?

    "Everyone I know went to law school because they thought it would a personally-rewarding career choice that was worth the investment. You seem to think that because a small minority of lawyers live the high life (at least on TV), that everyone goes to law school to drive Porsches and bang supermodels."

    You can't have it both ways here. On one hand, you and your ilk argue you were induced to attend law school byway of fabricated employment and salary statistics. These salaries are usually on the high side - and, unarguably, unrealistically so. But, then, on the other hand, now you want to claim that money wasn't the true motivating factor for attendance, but rather the pursuit of a personally-rewarding career.

    ReplyDelete
  13. "You think you have to find a job for every unemployed law grad in the US. But you don't. All you have to do is find one job, your own."

    And this egocentric view will cure the systemic problems of the legal industry that threaten all of our futures because...

    "Do you really forego applying to jobs b/c you anticipate a high number of applicants that you'll be competing against?"

    Have I ever said that? Has anyone? Where do you get this crap?

    "You can't have it both ways here. On one hand, you and your ilk argue you were induced to attend law school byway of fabricated employment and salary statistics. These salaries are usually on the high side - and, unarguably, unrealistically so. But, then, on the other hand, now you want to claim that money wasn't the true motivating factor for attendance, but rather the pursuit of a personally-rewarding career."

    These aren't mutually exclusive. I went to law school on the premise that I would almost certainly be able to find a private sector job making equal or more than my loan debt. This premise was based, in part, by representations by the law schools. But wanting to make a salary that justifies the expense, risk, and lost opportunity cost is NOT attending with finances as the "true motivating factor." Otherwise, under the view you put down here, any educational venture backed by a loan would be decision fueled by greed, which is absurd.

    ReplyDelete
  14. "And this egocentric view will cure the systemic problems of the legal industry that threaten all of our futures because..."

    Again, you don't have to fix the entire system. You just have to look out for yourself. If that's too egocentric for you, I don't know what else to say. It's a tough world out there and you have to fend for yourself. I empathize with unemployed law grads, but I'm focused on putting food on the table for me and my family. Everything else is just background noise. Am I a cold bastard? Maybe. But, if you're concerned, I sleep fine at night.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Every minute spent on sites like these is one less minute that could have been devoted finding legal employment.

    Do yourselves a favor and go to Martindale Hubbell's website, look up all the law firms in your city, and send a resume to every, single one listed. If you don't get a single call for an interview then you may have the right to complain. Otherwise quit the whining.

    As for the girl who sued TJSL, she says she sent out 150 resumes. There are over 2500 law firms listed on Martindale Hubbell. She sent a resume to approximately 6% of the listed firms in San Diego. Not exactly ambitious, now is she.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Resume bombing is your viable solution? Wow. You can't make this stuff up.

    I really hope you're being ironic, because the average law graduate probably has a better chance of landing a job sitting in a downtown bar getting drunk all day than by sending unsolicited resumes to every firm in town. Meanwhile, I'm simply dumbfounded at the amount of economic waste you're advising.

    And only a fool believes industry-wide systemic problems are not a concern if he, as an individual, does okay in the short term. You truly are a gold-medal troll/shill. Congrats.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I've heard this same "advice" now about how you just need to "look harder", "send more resumes", cold call firms. stalk hiring partners, etc etc.

    People are actually doing these things. That's why when a position gets listed anywhere, there are literally THOUSANDS of applicants! And this is even for the most "lowly" of jobs!

    No amount of resume bombing or any other method is going to solve the simple fact that THERE ARE TOO MANY LAWYERS RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT OF LAW WORK.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Resume bombing? That's absolutely out of the question, huh?

    How do think got jobs 30 years ago before the advent of the home computer and the internet? They went from company to company and asked if they were hiring, and if they could drop off their resume or fill out an application form. They treated finding a job as if it was a job in itself. They'd adorn their best business attire in the morning and spend a solid 8 hours a day pounding the pavement, until they turned up something.

    Now you can do this in your pajamas from the comfort of your own home, but I guess, even this, is too much to ask of recent law grads. I guess the legal world is supposed to come to you, not vice versa, and bang down your front door with a fabulous job offer in hand. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I've never heard so many excuses in my entire life for why you can't find work. One really has to question if you kids want to work at all.

    ReplyDelete
  19. You give boomers a bad name with your gross ignorance of the current job situation. Go put a craigslist ad for a attorney position and see the 300 plus resumes come in. At the end of the day the law school bubble will burst and these blogs will only assist in the bursting of said bubble. One post at a time.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Are you children really not applying to jobs because there is fierce competition for each and every job?

    Newsflash: The legal field is highly competitive. Hell, every field is highly competitive, especially in this economy.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Have you seriously got nothing better to do with your life than spend a Sunday afternoon waving your cane and casting blame on people who are doing the best they can?

    Might wanna take that 'pathetic' insult and turn it around at yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @ June 5, 2011 1:46 PM

    No one said "resume bombing" is "out of the question. No one said people aren't trying to get whatever job they can. Again that is why there are literally hundreds to thousands of applicant per job, even "lowly" ones!

    But his whole, you just need to work harder to look for law work makes an assumption that there is some treasure trove of hidden law work out there for the taking. Not so. There are way more lawyers than jobs for lawyers PERIOD!

    It is simply insulting to insinuate that it is an issue of people not trying hard enough rather than a systemic issue of lawyer oversupply.

    Many people on these blogs actually already have jobs, typically lowly ones because that's all they can get right now. The point of these blogs is not to whine but to warn future applicants to avoid law or at least go in with full knowledge of the risk. People should make informed decisions, no?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Yes people should make informed decisions. But are you telling me that recent crop of law grads, say, class of 2000 and onward, didn't realize the legal field was saturated before they started law school?

    ReplyDelete
  24. "are you telling me that recent crop of law grads, say, class of 2000 and onward, didn't realize the legal field was saturated before they started law school?"

    Yes. That mis-perception is a big part of the problem and it was caused - in large part - by the misleading statistics put out by law schools that were implicitly endorsed by media/official-sounding organizations. That's the root of the fraud case; are you really so dense that you didn't "get it" until now?

    ReplyDelete
  25. You guys purchased a legal education for well over 100K (in most cases) based solely on the data provided by the schools themselves without referencing a secondary source of any kind to verify or refute their assertions, and I'm the one who's dense here. Okay, I guess.

    ReplyDelete
  26. "You guys purchased a legal education for well over 100K (in most cases) based solely on the data provided by the schools themselves without referencing a secondary source of any kind to verify or refute their assertions, and I'm the one who's dense here. Okay, I guess."

    That my friends, is where the secondary source comes in via the manifestation of scam blogs. Either you honor the scam blogs and their role as a secondary source. Or you don't and admit there is no alternative.

    Can't always have your cake and eat it.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "You guys purchased a legal education for well over 100K (in most cases) based solely on the data provided by the schools themselves without referencing a secondary source of any kind to verify or refute their assertions, and I'm the one who's dense here."

    Holy shit on a stick, did you even read my comment? What part of "endorsed by media/official-sounding organizations" did you not understand???

    U.S. News is a 3rd-party secondary source. So is the BLS. So is the ABA. So are various other publications that mostly corroborated them in substance. I actually researched what was out there prior to taking on the law school debt and going to law school. Most students do. Do you really think law school applicants are so daft as to not do that?

    You're dense because you have a very low-level logical ability combined with defects in your reading ability. It makes for a bad combination.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Middle Class ConJune 7, 2011 at 5:56 PM

    Anonymous, who keeps being a ri-tard (a la "Rain Man") - either list your name, affiliation, or some form of moniker so we know who the hell you are or shove off. Quit trying to battle basic logic, it's boring me.

    ReplyDelete
  29. You guys have GOT to check this out. Federal SWAT team busts down a door in Stockton, California, handcuffs a dad and his 3 little kids in a police car for 6 hours, while they search for his estranged wife because she's... DEFAULTED ON HER STUDENT LOANS!

    http://www.news10.net/news/article/141072/2/Dept-of-Education-breaks-down-Stockton-mans-door

    ReplyDelete
  30. old mate above - until these blogs got up and running, there was an enormous information assymetry. american law schools obviously publish fudge, and there was previously no viable means of checking it. so you have a slew of graduates left in a position no economically rational being armed with all the facts would ever enter: $100K+ in putrid debt; shithouse income streams.

    even if they do 'parlay' at some point, the compounding interest in the meantime (I assume it compunds?) will make the mountain only ever higher, for most insurmountable.

    All these law schools should be forced to plaster the caveat Nando regularly cites from the finaid group or whoever across their info pages, and as a flyer with application packages: total debt should never exceed anticipated income.

    Once this penny drops, the gig's up - even the most optimistic inflated TTT income figures are generally south of the total indebtedness they cop to.

    law's an arse of a profession as it is. I can't imagine the hell it must be served with 6 figures of monstrous inescapable debt.

    ReplyDelete
  31. The ABA meets in August to consider accrediting a foreign law school:

    http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleFriendlyAL.jsp?id=1202494858380

    "Lehman has long hoped to make the Peking University School of Transnational Law (STL) the first law school outside the United States to be accredited by the ABA, which would allow its graduates to take the bar exam in any U.S. state."

    ReplyDelete

Real Time Analytics