From the ABA Journal:
A woman who says she graduated with honors from Thomas Jefferson School of Law in 2008 and passed the California bar exam but cannot find a decent legal job has sued the institution, contending that she was tricked into attending by employment statistics TJSL provided for the annual U.S. News & World Report law school survey.
Anna Alaburda, who racked up $150,000 in student loans and is now doing document-review work when she can find it, says she decided to attend the law school after reading the magazine's 2003 law school survey, reports the National Law Journal. It stated that 80 percent of the school's graduates were employed.
She "reasonably interpreted these figures to mean that the vast majority of TJLS graduates would find employment as full-time attorneys," the lawsuit states, alleging that "the foregoing statistics were false, misleading, and intentionally designed to deceive all who read them."
Filed by attorney Brian Procel of Miller Barondess, the suit seeks class action status and compensatory damages of $50 million for a claimed class of some 2,300 TJSL attendees.
Beth Kransberger, who serves as the law school's associate dean for student affairs, tells the legal publication there was no misrepresentation and says TJSL followed guidelines set by the American Bar Association when reporting its employment statistics..
"We've always been accurate in what we report, and we've always followed the system given to us by the ABA," she says. "This lawsuit is very much about a larger debate. This is part of the debate about whether it's practical to pursue a graduate degree in these difficult economic times."
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/honors_grad_working_as_doc_reviewer_sues_law_school_says_she_was_misled_by_/
The law school bubble begins to burst. The weakest link always falls first, just like Las Vegas for housing, just like Greece in the Eurozone. TJSL is one of the worst and therefore was the easiest target. Expect dozens of law suits against numerous law schools in the coming months. About fucking time! Let's see how many applications the law schools get once they have to display real employment statistics.
Only a fool would go to law school now
Things will be getting much tougher for American law schools. The sharks are smelling blood in the water with the ground breaking class action law suit getting filed against Thomas Jefferson School of Law. It is only a matter of time until other notorious TTT commodes (H/T Nando) also find themselves getting served with a juicy class action seeking 50 plus million in damages. As most people know, lawyers love making $$$ and with a new niche opening up these plaintiff firms will be stepping all over each other trying to be the first to file against the schools. And you can rest assured knowing that I will be putting these class actions on blast on this blog so that the word gets out that only a fool would go to law school now.
Just try to imagine the thoughts of a class of 2014 TJSL student right now. Being put on notice that their beloved law school is being sued for FRAUD must be putting them into a panic. How poorly will this reflect on this institution’s reputation? Will this hurt my chances of employment? Should I withdraw? Here is my advice: FUCK YES DROP OUT NOW! GTFO before it’s too late. By next week the registration office of TJSL will be in a panic as the applicants will flood said office with frantic calls. Just look at the facts: a 2008 grad with honors is suing the school or FRAUD. Is attending this hole worth the risk of graduating with 150k in debt with a strong possibility of not being able to get a decent paying job?
And this is why these plaintiff firms need to hurry the fuck up and file against the other law schools NOW. Hey guys if you are reading this HURRY UP AND FILE so that prospective students get scared and drop out before they commence their journey to financial ruin. Class actions alleging fraud are an absolute nightmare to a "prestigious" law school's reputation. Thq quicker these suits get filed the sooner the law school nightmare ends. I would like to personally thank the attorneys at Miller Barondess for having the guts to file a lawsuit like this. The implications of this lawsuit are far reaching and will effectively act as the pin that burst the law school bubble scam. Keep up the good work.
Eventually the ABA will get dragged into this and these turd schools will either be put on probation or will completely lose their accreditation. In addition, hopefully the Department of Education will finally stop being so corrupt and will pull the financing from these education chop shop mills. The "gainful employment" rule needs to be implemented ASAP across the board so that this student loan fiasco can finally come to an end. And finally, for all the souls out there that are drowning in nondischargeable student loan debt, some form of bankruptcy relief can be instituted.
Death by a thousand cuts to the law school cartel.
Subprime JD: A blog dedicated to exposing the law school and higher education scam.
I think this is just the beginning...
ReplyDeleteMany law schools will inevitably face class action lawsuits by students who were misled by false employment data.
This hopefully will bankrupt many of these institutions, as they are cash poor and almost solely reliant upon taxpayer guaranteed student loans to fund their operations.
ReplyDeleteIf they have to pay significant damages, they will go under. How much did this toilet pay for its new building? How much do the Deans and other managers of this place get paid every year?
Hopefully this will shut this place down for good. It could be the beginning of the end for these outhouses. It is remarkable how they think the ABA is going to protect them. Think again, the ABA protects only biglaw and themselves...they have no love for these bottom of the barrell schools.
These guys are on par with Madoff.
I graduated from a second tier, top 20 law school in the mid-1990s. Six months after graduation, I received a graduate survey from my law school asking, among other things, whether I had found employment. I filled out and returned the survey responding that I was at that time unemployed. Later, I discovered that my law school reported that 100% of my graduating class had found employment 6 months after graduation.
ReplyDeleteI even complained to my law school's career services office. Their attitude at the time seemed to be that unless a student graduated in at least the top 25% of the class, then he/she didn't deserve the attention of the career services office.
The funny thing is that they trained their students to sue them.
ReplyDelete...they trained their students in litigation skills, and now they're angry because that ability is being used against them.
ReplyDeleteMay 29, 2011 1:29 AM: You should file a complaint with the DOE. Contact lawschooltransparency.com and tell them what happened.
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm sure they didn't train them to do shit. No law school student knows how to file a class action lawsuit upon graduating.
ReplyDeletehttp://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings
ReplyDeleteFourth Tier Dung Heap TTTThoma$ Jeffer$on $chool of Law ranks SECOND, in terms of average law student indebtedness for the Class of 2010. That figure was $137,353 - and 95% of this graduating class incurred student debt for law school.
I recall that these pigs recently constructed a new law school buidling in downtown San Diego. You figure these cockroaches must have spent a fortune on the new complex - and they were apparently planning to pass these IMMENSE costs onto the next crops of law students.
I think this is a good start. Perhaps this case can be used for a good class discussion some time.
ReplyDeleteI'm 34 with a third-tier J.D. and a self-made $1m+ net worth. I got here by studying to graduate near the top of my class, marketing myself until I got that $125k offer, working my a** off, and of course being prudent with my money before, during, and after law school. I just wanted to rant that all this bs about complaining about how your law school fooled you as a reason to why you are so poor is downright funny. I and every other lawyer making $200k plus with a high net worth is laughing at this crap. So thanks for the entertainment.
ReplyDeleteLaw as practiced by firms is a business, the goal is to make money. Paying some winney jag-off who managed to graduate third tier or lower with a B/C average $100k+ wouldn't be good business now, would it? Not only would it be bad marketing, but the winners in the firm wouldn't feel comfortable being around losers. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. The amount of financial incompetence among law students is astounding. Did you even try to do any basic math about how much you are spending vs how much you expect to be making? Did you just want the J.D. for the "prestige" without having a clue what your prospects may or may not be? Well you got it, so show your prestigeous JD to the hiring manager at Starbucks...ha. Yeah, the law school painted rosy numbers for employment and salary, so that absolved you of all responsibility to use any common sense whatsoever in choosing your career? Good argument. I noticed that in law school marketing materials the profs all look happy and engaging, the students are gorgeous, and the weather is always freakin perfect. I guess I should sue them for those misrepresentations too.
The fact is your employment, income, and everything else will be determined by more than any other factor by your attitude. If you have a can do attitude and act accordingly you will be successful. This of course assumes some basic level of general competence, which you may or may not have. If you have a can't do attitude - well maybe you'll be successful at ranting about how much you suck. But I don't know if there is much money in that.
I call bullshit on the guy claiming to make $1 million net each month as a 34 year old TTT grad. Who knows? Maybe he is sucking off 200,000 sailors a month.
ReplyDeleteA 34 year old JD making 200k/ month and a $1m +net worth, would not have the time to be posting in these blogs. what are you doing on this blog anyways.
ReplyDeleteI can guarantee Young and Rich, JD is full of bullshit. Prove it, tough guy. What firm do you work for? What school did you graduate from?
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on being able to completely fabricate (poorly) an Internet comment post. Your mommy would be so proud.
Ahh the financial idiocy of the people on here! I wrote "$1m+ net worth" and "making $200k" and for some of you that translates into $1m per month or $200k/month. As if it wasn't readily apparent enough that too many young J.D.s are completely financially illiterate.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think it is funny that J.D.s are blaming their law school for being broke, you have no sense of irony, or are too deep in the mess yourself. Any outsider who reads this is lol. So if you think that makes me a bad person, then I guess everyone else is bad too. Everyone except you, right? Haha.
I visited this website because it was linked from a business news article. I was incredulous and wanted a good laugh and I got it.
I hope the TTT and TTTT schools do publish real concrete numbers. Or write a disclaimer on the marketing materials like a cigarette ad. Because that is going to be funny too! But nope you are not getting that tuition money back! That's if you were dumb enough to pay it in the first place. Everyone I knew at my TTT was either full ride or 75% scholarship, like me.
Just to translate for the financially illiterate. "Net worth" is an accumulation amount. It is not a rate of earnings. And if a 34 year old J.D. says he is "making $200k" that is a per year number. Not per month, jeesh!
ReplyDelete"If you have a can do attitude and act accordingly you will be successful."
ReplyDeleteThis is VERY flawed statement. Attitude helps but it won't change the fact that the number of law positions is dwarfed by the number of law grads. It is always easy for someone who already has it made to say that its simply bad attitude and lack of hard work that is keeping them down. But in a lot of cases, its simply just "luck of the draw". As long as there is a vast oversupply of law grads, there will always be losers no matter how hard you try and how great your attitude is.
I'm obviously not saying that attitude and hard work doesn't help. But for a lot of people, being born in privilege and having connections is really the key. And sometimes, you just get lucky. Even in the most brutal job markets, there is always going to be a handful that somehow make it. It doesn't mean though that if everyone just "worked hard" and had a "good attitude" that they will succeed.
Because mathematically, if there are N jobs but G grads and G >> N, there will be (G-N) "losers" no matter what.
Hm.
ReplyDelete"I and every other lawyer making $200k plus with a high net worth is laughing at this crap."
You do know basic grammar right? I hope so. Very few firms will keep people who can't write.
Anyways, I went to a TIII AND I am employed in-house. I follow Subprime's blog and a few others. I don't think their complaints are wrong or laughable. Most lawyers who lurk around here don't either. They are feeling the same collective doom.
It is not a question of personal responsibility. Consumers must be protected from unethical practices. I have doubt that the average 20yr old fresh out of college, with zero work experience, is a sophisticated consumer. Do you think you were sophisticated enough to see though the cleverly marketed and flat out deceptive recruiting practices of these Tier4< toilets.
Many young lemmings have been indoctrinated by their parents, public schools, and media to believe that law school is the path to a sustainable career which will make you money. For some people that are lucky or have the right skill set it still can be. But for the vast majority of grads it is simply a path to bagging groceries at "Stop and Shop," and overwhelming debt.
I suspect that you are a troll. You have not stated what school you came from. Nor have you told us what area of law your in. I simply don't believe you. Why? Well its because its preposterous in this economy. I live in NY/NJ metro and I work for a rather large corporation in NYC, so I know a bit about the biglaw associates in Manhattan. I don't know any jr. associates making that kind of money at the top 10. A 34 year old partner these days?? lulz. Go away troll, back to your JDunderground cavern.
Young and rich,
ReplyDeletePlease post a link of the article that referenced this blog. And while you're at spare me some change
"Because mathematically, if there are N jobs but G grads and G >> N, there will be (G-N) "losers" no matter what."
ReplyDeleteWRONG. This statement makes the false presumption that the number of jobs in existence for lawyers is fixed. Which is not true. The public perception is that a good lawyer is nearly impossible to find, rightfully so. And the demand for legal services far surpasses the supply. This also explains why good lawyers make so much freakin money! If anybody can create a job for themselves it is a resourceful person with a law degree. Just the other day a prospective client thanked me repeatedly and profusely just for answering my phone. Apparently his other attempts to secure (and pay for) legal services was unfruitful. The moral of the story is that just because it's not handed to you on a silver platter (like some new JDs seemed to expect), doesn't mean that it is not out there for you to get. But if you want to blame it on luck, birth privilege, or connections, so be it. That just means more work, opportunity, and money for the people who go out there and get it.
Do you realize that "being born in privilege and having connections" probably applies to 1% of graduates at most? Yet WAY more than 1% find gainful employment immediately or before graduating.
There was a guy in my TTT graduating class named Wachtell. He seemed like a gunner so I asked him if he was related to the name partner at Wachtell Lipton. He quickly replied, "if I were do you think I would be at THIS law school." Point is the idea that family connections are a significant factor is a myth for over 99% of graduates.
"...This statement makes the false presumption that the number of jobs in existence for lawyers is fixed. Which is not true. The public perception is that a good lawyer is nearly impossible to find, rightfully so. And the demand for legal services far surpasses the supply'
ReplyDeleteThere is a large demand for legal services. The problem you fail to realize is that the price that common people can or are willing to pay for said legal services is VERY low. It doesn't matter that there is this "big" demand for legal services when that demand consists of legal aid clients that can't pay.
"You do know basic grammar right? .... I don't know any jr. associates making that kind of money at the top 10."
ReplyDeleteCritick:
Just for my personal enlightenment go ahead and point out exactly what is grammatically wrong with my sentence that you quoted.
You think $200k (ANNUAL people!) is unbelievable money at 34?! Seriously? If anything that is on the low end. The big firms are starting people at $160k and those guys are typically 25-26 years old. Unless you are just clueless, how in the world do you think that $200k is a lot of money for a firm lawyer busting is a**, even if he was from TTT? When guys 9 years less experienced are pulling $160k? I suppose you wan the government to protect you from your own financial idiocy your entire life, in addition to when you are choosing your career education.
Ok, enough fun for now. I got to make some scratch. Don't worry I'll be back.
He got his, he doesn't care if everyone else gets screwed. He laughs at others' calamities and identifies with powerful wickedness. He overly congratulates himself for qualities he probably doesn't have and overly blames others for faults they probably don't possess.
ReplyDeleteTypical psychopath.
Free in 2028,
ReplyDeleteYou said it best. People like this actually enjoy the fact that others suffer as they believe it gives them a leg up on life. Personally, I'd prefer to be broke instead of having darkened soul. You can always find a way to make a decent living over time whereas a evil heart is much more difficult to cure.
Thomas Jefferson Law School teaches a course on "The Rule of Law in China".
ReplyDeleteSome U.S. law schools falsely suggest that if students take such courses, then they can work in China.
http://www.tjsl.edu/courses/sd-496
Young and Rich, JD is also NOT REAL. Get a life/girlfriend YRJD. Seriously. You have given absolutely no credibility to a single shred of your assertions. Your posts are riddled with grammatical errors, much like your back is with acne. Your writing style is also about as entertaining as a Matthew McConaughey film that isn't Dazed and Confused.
ReplyDeleteSubprime - have Nando show you how to do a simple IP address search. It's probably the same tool who posts on the TTR comment section regularly.
But dosen't YRJD make some good points? There is something to be said about having a can do attitude and going out there and just doing it.
ReplyDeleteFor example, it seems from the news that DUIs are up. Maybe a couple of unemployed grads and get together and do DUI defense work.
There has to be a better solution than suing the law schools.
And the economy is picking up in the Bay Area. My company just brought in contractor to work as a contracts manger. He went to law school in Costa Rica and is not admitted to practice law in the US. He is happy to make $60/hr for this non-prestigious gig.
I find a number of problems with this lawsuit, in general, and the plaintiff, in particular.
ReplyDeleteThe Complaint attempts to paint the plaintiff as though she was a stellar student without really addressing the details. I would like to know a little more about her academic performance at NYU and TJSL. What was her major at NYU, UGPA, LSAT score, and so forth?
Also, just graduating with honors isn't a major accomplishment at a TTTT. In fact, TJSL grants Cum Laude status to graduates in the top 33%. I don't know if this applies to the plaintiff or not, but I would surmise that it does. Otherwise I believe the Complaint would have explicitly stated that she graduated Magna Cum Laude or Summa Cum Laude, or included a precise percentile, e.g., top 10%, in an effort to further show the school's lack of reputation within the legal community. Anyone contemplating law school knows full well that to find gainful employment afterwards one needs to graduate in or near the top 10% of the class at a TTTT.
Additionally, what type of elective classes did she take? Did she participate in practice clinics, mock trials, contract drafting, etc.? Or did take pointless classes like "Law and Literature" or "Critical Race Theory?" Many students waste their time and money on sham courses like these. Did she?
Finally, yes, law schools massage their employment data to put their best foot forward. Everyone knows this going in. If she didn't bother to do some research before borrowing over 100K in student loans, then that's on her.
One final point, the lawsuit is asking for $50 Million in compensatory damages for a class of, potentially, 2,300 students. If they prevail and the school actually paid the full amount, after the attorney's take their cut (1/3), this leaves each student with approximately $14, 347.83. This is further evidence as to how mathematically incompetent this woman is.
She is running the risk of becoming a further pariah in the legal community for a mere $14, 347.83 in remuneration. I hope it's worth it.
Anon @ 10:16AM said,
ReplyDelete"Finally, yes, law schools massage their employment data to put their best foot forward. Everyone knows this going in. If she didn't bother to do some research before borrowing over 100K in student loans, then that's on her."
That is not true. Misrepresentation of a material fact is the basis of the fraud claim. Law students are in fact relying on the data published and provided by the law schools. In addition, the lawsuit seeks $50 million in compensatory damages IN ADDITION to PUNITIVE damages, which can be 10 times the amount of general damages. Next time, please check your facts, fucking law school shill.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter whether she was a stellar student or not. The basis of the lawsuit is that she was lied to about employment prospects when she chose to attend TJLS. If TJLS outright lied and made up employment data, then that's on TJLS not on her.
ReplyDeleteShe did do her research and her research relied on data from the school that was clearly misleading and false. Obviously, it is not true that "everyone knows this going in" otherwise there wouldn't be this lawsuit and slew of scamblogs trying to get the word out now.
If a school made material representations that people relied on that were false, then they should be held responsible. You are clearly a shill for the law schools and trying to excuse and justify their fraudulent marketing practices.
@ 11:15AM
ReplyDeleteBingo.
Shill, go killself post haste,
Shill, nice. Gotta love Ad Hominem attacks.
ReplyDeleteIt's not surprising that so many of you so called "lawyers" find yourselves out of work. Some of you can't even carry on a reasonable discussion without resorting to personal attacks against those who have differing views.
"Obviously, it is not true that 'everyone knows this going in' otherwise there wouldn't be this lawsuit and slew of scamblogs trying to get the word out now."
You can only assume that she didn't realize this before starting law school. It may be the case that she knew the data was skewed, realized the associated risk of attending, rolled the dice, then after it didn't work out for her, filed a lawsuit. Only she knows the answer. None of us do.
Come on, let's be honest here. Do you really expect me to believe that you guys, before the "slew of scamblogs," thought 5 or 6 years ago you could drool on a LSAT, sit through some intolerably boring law classes, take the bar, and someone would hand you the keys to your personal office and six-figure salary? I mean, if so, that borders on downright delusion.
As for punitive damages, I realize that that's a possibility. I just didn't include it in my quick calculation.
My point of noting the payout amount was to emphasize that this girl who alleges she was taken advantage of by the law school will now be taken advantage of by the Plaintiff's firm. If they win, it's the firm that's going to be the multi-million dollar winner, not poor little Anna. But, of course, the firm probably wouldn't have represented her without the class action.
Finally, you guys should know that just because something is immoral or unethical that doesn't necessarily make it illegal. In fact, a lot of unethical practices are shrouded in the ragged garments of apparent legality.
The ABA recently admitted that the employment data guidelines are vague. TJSL undoubtedly doctored the numbers, just like every other law school does. But so long as TJSL complied with the ABA guidelines and didn't do something completely reckless, then it would be hard to find the school at fault. Unethical? Sure. Illegal? We'll see.
Anon said,
ReplyDelete'My point of noting the payout amount was to emphasize that this girl who alleges she was taken advantage of by the law school will now be taken advantage of by the Plaintiff's firm. If they win, it's the firm that's going to be the multi-million dollar winner, not poor little Anna. But, of course, the firm probably wouldn't have represented her without the class action."
In fact, many people win. Will the law firm make out like bandits? I sure hope so. Will the class rep get a bigger check. Absolutely. But the bigger picture here is the effect on law school enrollments, especially to these TTT's. Once lawsuits have been filed against dozens of these diploma mills, perhaps some of them will be shut down. In the alternative, there is the possibility that the schools will be forced to be more honest in their employment data reporting. With transparency re employment data, only a true moron/gambler would attend then.
Living Well in California said...
ReplyDelete"But dosen't YRJD [Young and Rich, JD] make some good points? There is something to be said about having a can do attitude and going out there and just doing it."
--
Thanks. Low and behold someone on this board has finally made some good and valid points in support of my posts. So congrats to "living well in CA". You make well reasoned arguments (unlike almost every other person on here). No wonder you're employed. I can tell you are a winner. Game recognize game. See how she stayed on topic, unlike the childish name calling. You are "living well" and living right, unlike the others. What they are doing is just wrong, plain wrong, and pathetic. Btw you're beautiful too. Do you want to go on a date? Maybe settle down and make some winner babies? If so hit me up at youngandrichJD at gmail.
The point is there is tons of legal work out there for the go getters. The DUI angle she mentioned is obviously a good idea, and it is just one of the innumerable angles one could pursue. And it isn't bust a gut laughable. Suing your l.s. for a measly $14k? Now that's funny. If you don't think it's funny, wait till the tv comics get news of this.
Some people on here claim to know a lot about big firm associates and that none of them are making $200k. And that I would have to be a partner make that much. Some people make these claims while admitting the have never worked in a big firm. What an ignorant thing to say. Do you have any idea what how little the difference is between $160k and $200k? Especially when we are talking years difference in experience. Big firm partners make $400k on the LOW end to multiple millions on the high end. Those numbers are known. Big firm partners don't work for a measly $200k. Do you realize the firm associates make only $160k their first year? Have you heard of something called a raise? Seriously what planet are some of you people on? You got guys from Costa Rica who don't even have U.S. JDs making $120k. And you are complaining about your tuition investment? It's time for a big reality check. Young & Rich, JD is to give it to you.
"The ABA recently admitted that the employment data guidelines are vague. TJSL undoubtedly doctored the numbers, just like every other law school does. But so long as TJSL complied with the ABA guidelines and didn't do something completely reckless, then it would be hard to find the school at fault. Unethical? Sure. Illegal? We'll see."
ReplyDeleteABA guidelines as no bearing on whether fraud was committed. If the toy manufacturers had "guidelines" from the "Toy Manufacturer's Association" that said you could use lead paint, does that mean that they could use lead paint and you'd be unable to seek redress just b/c their trade association said so???
TJLS is going to lose big if all it can claim is that it followed "ABA guidelines" while basically admitting that its stats are misrepresentation.
The comments about "DUI work" is just beyond stupid. There are more than enough lawyers for DUI cases presently. And most DUI perpetrators are not exactly the kind of person that has the money to hire a lawyer. Get real.
ReplyDeleteAs for responding to other obvious troll nonsense, the reality speaks for itself.
I think this lawsuit is so stupid. The law school promised her a legal education, not a job. Given that she passed the State Bar on the first attempt, I think this shows the school delivered on that promise.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, even if the employment statistics are inaccurate, they don't assert 100% employment. If the school had touted 100% employment for 5 or 6 consecutive years, then she may have a valid point. But she based her decision to attend on an 80% employment rate. She just thought that she'd be in that 80%. She got left out and got her feelings hurt.
What kind of person files a lawsuit on her own law school? Who'd want this kind of person as a colleague? No wonder she's unemployable. She's probably a wretched person who's extremely difficult to get along with.
This case will never go anywhere. It's a needed shot across the bow of law schools, administrators, and faculty. But this case is weak.
Just look at the Complaint wherein paragraph 54 refutes the slanderous claim made earlier in paragraph 8. How could TJSL be more concerned with raking in millions of dollars than educating and training its students, when Anna passed the bar on the first attempt? It seems like she received a pretty good education to me.
Anna, you were never guaranteed a job only an education. It's up to you to make full use of that education in the free market.
@ Anon 2:49
ReplyDeleteYou obviously do not know any DUI attorneys. Regular people get DUIs everyday. They pay attorneys hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars just to plead guilty, negotiate a fine and do some attendant paperwork. In 2009 there were 1.44 million DUI arrests. These people include celebs like Paris, Nicole and Lindsay -- as well as the suburban mom who had a little too much champagne at a baby shower.
@ June 2, 2011 5:58 PM
ReplyDeleteIf TJLS put out misleading and inaccurate data that were material facts to market to students, they can be held responsible, plain and simple. Bernie Madoff never guaranteed returns either but guess what he's in jail because he committed fraud.
If TJLS made material representations that students relied on which were clearly FALSE, then they too can be held accountable. Too bad for you TJLS shills that your school will get the reckoning it deserves.
@ June 2, 2011 8:54 PM
ReplyDeleteYes there are lots of DUIs just like there are lots of personal injuries cases. There are simply way more than enough attorneys and firms to handle it. For those that want or need an attorney for such things, I have never in my life known of a situation where someone couldn't get an attorney to represent them if they had the money to pay them.
Therefore your comment insinuating that there is all this DUI work available and not enough attorneys to do this work is asinine.
And not to beat on a dead horse again, but aside from the fact that they are already way too many DUI, Personal Injury, type firms and attorneys, new law grads aren't exactly in a position to practice those areas due to little training and experience and are in a bad position especially in terms of competing to get clients. Even established firms have to spend lots of money advertising to continue to get these clients.
ReplyDeleteOkay to make the point crystal clear, there are WAY too many law grads relative to the amount of law work. That's it. No amount of "go getter attitude" is going to change that. Some will make it but many will not because again THERE ISN"T ENOUGH WORK TO GO AROUND. Get it?
So you are not qualified to go in a plead guilty on a DUI? Really? Jeesh, look in the mirror, judging from that attitude you would make ANY excuse for not doing something. How about finding a reason TO DO something.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's not just DUI work you could do, which "living well" pointed out pays thousands of dollar for easy work. There are innumerable other fields to pursue. Landlord/tenant, bankruptcy, family law, police brutality, trademark, geriatric, consumer advocacy, dog bite, the list goes on an on. There are even people out there with money who actually want an attorney for minor traffic offenses! It is of course unnecessary, but if the client wants to spend the money they are entitled to have legal representation. I read very recently that there is even a booming legal industry surrounding delinquent student loan collections. Many of you could participate in that.
Next think one of you is going to say that we have all the sudden become such a friendly non-litigious society, that doesn't need lawyers! Get real.
Wrong! Bernie Madoff did offer a guaranteed ROI. That's precisely how he attracted new clients. But that's not why he's in jail. He's in jail because he actually stole money from his clients. He's not in jail because he promised a 12% annual return and didn't deliver. Big difference.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are the biggest bunch of losers on the planet. If you spent more time looking for a job and less time on these boards, you might be employed.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Young and Rich JD. If you guys can't plead a simple DUI, then you obviously wasted your time and money by attending law school. What firm would hire a loser like that? Law firms hire confident, competent attorneys, not losers who are too meek or incompetent to handle the simplest of legal work.
Take a look in the mirror, guys. You just don't have what it takes to be a successful attorney. Sorry. You obviously have the intellectual capacity, but lack the ambition and attitude to carve a successful life and career out of this very challenging economy.
New grads don't have training to actually practice? So what? What do you have to lose? Are you scared you'll screw up a case and get disbarred? So what? If you'll never find employment with a law firm like you guys whine and cry about all the time, then roll the dice and represent some folks in minor actions. You'll likely become competent in a couple of areas before you run into problems.
@ 5:14
ReplyDeleteWell said! It seems like the blood-thirsty competition that is the free market caught you folks with your pants down. But everything about law school demonstrates just how tough the competition is and how one must perform at the top-level in order to succeed. Look at the intra-school moot court team selection process. Hundreds of students fight and claw for a dozen or so slots.
If nothing else law school is a case study in Darwinian ethics. What you folks apparently failed to realize was law school wasn't a departure from free market realities, but was itself an academic embodiment of the free market ethos.
It's tough in the real world, kiddos. Get used to it.
Some of you people will come up with any excuse to blame the law schools for your unemployment. I gave an example of DUI work because DUI arrests are increasing – cities and counties are trying to bring in more money thru traffic violations and DUI arrests. I never said there are not enough DUI attorneys. I am just trying to point out that in a growing market there is room for competiton, as opposed to a declining market.
ReplyDeleteThe source of the problem for a lot of scambloggers is not law school statistics and the economy – it’s their mindset. A lot of you are either lazy or troubled and fingerpoint as an excuse. I have known people like you in a good ecomony. Your expecations are not in alignment with either your skills or drive. The sooner you take responsibility for your own destiny, the sooner you may find peace and pleasure in this temporary world.
The above poster is right. Unless you fools figure out a way to monetize these scamblogs, all the moaning and groaning in the world isn't going to put food on the table. I've seen disgruntled graduates refer to themselves as "the lost generation." You're lost alright. You're also clueless about the harsh realities of the world. You often times see people say that this is worst economy since the Great Recession. We'll know that something isn't it? The same people whining about the state of the economy are spouting this b.s. while sitting behind their fancy computer, drinking their $5 latte, and texting on their smartphone. Yes, tough times indeed.
ReplyDeleteYou guys have know idea what tough economic times are. You're a bunch of entitled little brats who've spent their entire lives up to this point in school of one type or another. Now that you're finished with school you expect the rest of the world to fall at your feet and worship your great accomplishment.
The business and legal world has changed drastically over the last couple decades. Are law schools responsible that? Hell no.
Here's a litte economic lesson for you, dimwits. If you're an employee, you're paid for the value you add to your employer's business (otherwise known as "value-added"). If you can't add something of value immediately, then the company isn't going to hire you. What value do you jerks bring to the table, as compared to every other law graduate out there? This is question you should have asked and addressed in law school.
Law school doesn't prepare you to practice. Most people know this. Law school doesn't teach you think like a lawyer, either; at best it teaches you to think like a judge. I knew this so before I went to law school, I got a paralegal certificate and worked in a firm for 2 1/2 years. During that time I gained practical, real-world legal experience. I knew how to draft a complaint/petition, file motions, and a myriad of other tangible legal skills before I even set foot inside a law school class room. Needless to say, this also gave me a great advantage over my colleagues when it came time to search for full-time employment.
Maybe law schools should require two years of pertinent work experience before they accept students, not unlike the country's most prestigious MBA programs. Then maybe
To the jackass claiming that free market forces are at work regarding struggling law school grads;
ReplyDeleteBut for government providing loans to law school students, tuition prices would be much lower today. Eventually when the dept of education stops providing tuition financing, tuitions will either plummet or many ttt law schools will shut down. Will less law schools cranking out less grads, only then will true market forces correct the overproduction of attorneys in an already gutted market.
What do think would happen if the student loan faucet was turned off? You'd have a whole generation of kids clamoring that their opportunity to go to law school was stolen from them. That it's not fair that previous generations were able to take out loans, but not them.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is not the law schools or the availability of student loans. The real problem is students who are overly optimistic with respect to the "law school lottery." Everyone of them thinks they're going to be a superstar in law school and in practice. It rarely happens in either case.
I received a very poignant lesson from a very successful attorney a few years back. He said, "The practice of law is all about client relationships. Keeping old clients and constantly attracting new clients. You could be the best goddam legal mind since Learned Hand, but if you can't keep and attract clients, you're not going to make it in this business."
It's the unpaid 130k student loans that are ruining lives. Turn off the taxpayer funded credit party and the problem goes away.
ReplyDeleteWow, 3-4 anti-scamblog comments in a row!
ReplyDeleteGawd. So now it's the government's fault for lending you money at a silly low interest rate with no collateral? And its the law school fault for creating too many new lawyers such as yourselves? And of course it is the career service office's fault for not going out there hitting the bricks and finding you a job? Does anyone else see a pattern here?
True story. I was top 10% and law review at a 3rd tier. So I had a couple of earned selling points I'll admit. But a close friend of mine had NOTHING. He graduated FOURTH TIER at the BOTTOM of the class. Yeah, not only was he at a bottom of the fourth-tier ls, he was at the bottom of the class at the bottom of the fourth tier ls! During LS when he asked me to look at some of his writing. It was so bad I didn't know how to begin to help. I wondered if he could make it. He barely graduated, but he did graduate, class of '09. Is he at home moping and blaming others? No, less than 2 years after graduating he bought himself a beamer (albeit a used one) and has some money to share with his destitute father. How? He knew he didn't have a chance in hell at getting into a big firm. So he got out there and worked with the small street level PI offices. He joined up and became friends with another younger guy doing the same thing. He's willing to rep less than fabulous clients. He does some billboard advertising in less than choice parts of his city, where he can afford it. It wasn't always easy, there were times he was depressed about the situation, but he got up and did something. In short HE HUSTLED! Now there is nothing to stop him from going all the way to the top. Btw, I have personally met TTT big firm partners, some making $500k+ annual. TTT is not a death sentence people.
I realize that this whole scamblog thing has gone to far and the TJLS lawsuit is the tipping point. Scamblogs have jumped the shark. This thread alone shows that there are tons of people who agree with me. So I'm saying right here to you all that Young & Rich, JD is stating his own blog. It is going to be the anti-scamblog, or the scam-scam-blog or something. Really it's hereby called "Young and Rich, JD." Or YRJD for short. On YRJD the topics will be success stories. How you made it. How you continue to make it. Ideas for what to do ones continuing flow of riches. Inspirational stories. How hard it is to find good staff. Vacation tips. Luxury watch, spa, and car reviews. Basically all things relevant to Young and Rich lawyers. On Young and Rich, JD the people who chime in with a sob story will be the trolls. But they can live vicariously through us. There are dozens of scamblogs but there, but there is only one Young and Rich, JD blog. So make the choice to join me on the ground floor.
World's first anti-scamblog:
ReplyDeletehttp://youngandrichjd.blogspot.com/
We will provide incredible insights to unemployed JDs and Young and Rich JDs alike.
"But for government providing loans to law school students, tuition prices would be much lower today. Eventually when the dept of education stops providing tuition financing, tuitions will either plummet or many ttt law schools will shut down."
ReplyDeleteIf student loans weren't readily available to students, then you'd be bitching about access denied. And yes, I know, from reading your other posts that you apparently went to law school on a full-ride. But had the student loans not been there for other students to attend your school, then very likely the school may have not been there for you to attend in the first place.
Look, the government makes school loans because it realizes that a more educated population makes for a better overall economy. It's up to the individual student to decide how best to utilize access to the available loans. As a consumer you have the choice to attend or not attend.
And please stop with the school's are "hiding the ball" when it comes to employment and salary statistics. You mean to tell me you never once questioned to astonishing disconnect between the law school marketing materials and the state of the legal field. You never once said to yourself: "Wait a minute, here. How can the graduates of a TTT or TTTT school be making 80-100K right out of school, when I know (or at least you should have, moron) that the legal field has been over saturated for nearly three decades?" It's a simple supply and demand issue. If the supply of attorneys is greater than the demand, then obviously some will find themselves unemployed and others will take jobs paying significantly less money than they'd hoped for.
If you couldn't do this simple analysis, I really think you lack the judgment and intellectual capacity to be an attorney. I know I wouldn't hire you. I think you're a complete, moron.
If law schools are committing fraud, so what? You don't have to attend. If you're remotely intelligent enough to decipher their bullshit and come to the conclusion that their marketing material is, in fact, bullshit, then you don't have to attend.
It's very much analogous to me offering to sell you ocean-front property in Arizona. Yes, by making such a claim, I would be committing fraud. But if you bought it without pulling out a freaking map to see where the hell Arizona is located geographically, then you're a complete and utter imbecile. In short, a scant amount of due diligence before attending law school would have saved you clowns three years and a boat load of money.
@ June 4, 2011 10:05 AM
ReplyDeleteIf you want to put some of the blame on very young and naive and unsophisticated students that chose to attend law school at great expense then that's fine. But why are the law school scammers getting a free pass???
With this logic, no scammers or fraudsters or con artists should ever be responsible because I guess you could always say that the victim was too naive and gullible and bears the full blame. Tell me how absurd is that???
If law schools provided FALSE and MISLEADING data that was relied on, then they are should be held responsible. Are you truly arguing that if they lied, the victims are responsible for figuring out that they lied and the liars have no liability? This has got to be the most asinine logic I've ever heard!
:
And for all of the comments about how its about "hustle" and "good attitude" again, you are ignoring the reality that there are simply far too many attorneys vs the number of paying legal work. PERIOD. There isn't obviously zero work but there is nowhere near enough for the amount of law grads now. How many times does this need to be said until it sinks in?
The fact that SOME people manage to get legal work doesn't change the FACT that there is not enough legal work to go around.
As my final commentary on this, I would point out that when it comes to pretty much any other consumer industry, it is widely accepted that we place the responsibility on the company to have truthful advertising and avoid misrepresentations to consumers.
ReplyDeleteWhen we buy consumer products and services, we place the most stringent burden on the company to disclose material facts and certainly to NOT make false and misleading claims. When they do, we can and do hold these companies responsible.
More burden is placed on the sellers because they possess the knowledge that unsophisticated consumers won't have and can be easily taken advantage of were it not for consumer protection laws.
Yet when it comes to buying and selling educations and suddenly its all on the buyers and the "sellers" can mislead and lie all they want???
YRJD,
ReplyDeleteyou say you're 34 and that you're making $200,000+ a year. yes, associates can in fact make a base salary of $200,000 before spring/fall bonuses, but i'm assuming you're at least in your 5th year of associateship, maybe even more.
all i have to say is that you better make partner soon, or your wonderful bosses will soon nudge you out the door. why pay $200,000+ for an associate with a douchebag personality when you can hire one straight out of law school for $160,000?
also, your lovey-dovey "all you need is a good attitude and you'll be employed" is ludicrous, and doesn't even merit a response.
Why should they pay me $200k+? Oh that's a real tough one. Especially when I'm competing with zero experience candidates. Uh I dunno, how about b/c I'm bringing $600k+ into the firm? How's that for an answer for you! Did I forget to mention that lawyers up and down the food chain like making money? I suppose that core concept is still lost on many readers.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that everybody needs to be protected and coddled is whats wrong with our society. Oh you didn't like that house bought in '06, ah well blame it on the bank and stop paying. Oh you dont' like your law degree, sue the law school. Has anyone ever heard of the phrase "buyer beware" or "caveat emptor"? It is not a new concept. We would all be better off if more people took personal responsibility for their decisions and choices.
http://youngandrichjd.blogspot.com/
Don't confuse them YRJD. They obviously don't understand the basics of mathematics, nor the principle of "value-added."
ReplyDeleteMost of these clowns freely admit they lack even the most rudimentary of lawyering skills (e.g., statements such as: "I can't defend a DUI case on my own, I don't have the experience to do that"), but expect law firms to roll out the red carpet.
If you require constant handholding, then you're not going to be a viable candidate. Plain and simple.
I've read all the comments, but I'm still not clear. Should I go to law school or not?
ReplyDeleteTo anon @ 4:56 pm asking whether or not you should go to law school:
ReplyDeleteThis is subprime, the author. For some reason I can't post under my username. Anyways, if you want to go to law school here are some things you REALLY need to consider:
(1) which law school (rank is extremely important in this economy)
(2) how much debt will you incur?
(3) have you ever worked in a law firm?
(4) do you know what lawyers do?
(5) how does the thought of defending insurance companies against slip and falls, car crashes, dog bites, or other claims sound to you?
(6) long hours, high stress, poor social life
(7) EXTREMELY OVERSATURATED LEGAL MARKET WITH 25,000 POSITIONS FOR OVER 45,000 GRADS
These are things you need to seriously think about. This thread had many trolls on it but check on some other posts or the other blogs and read the comments carefully. My tier 4 2009 class got decimated with most of them having to go solo 6 months after getting admitted because they needed to pay bills but couldnt get full time law jobs. Believe me, many of them are struggling.
I hope this helps.
I graduated from a 4th tier and I knew I was going to have to hustle every step of the way to get the 'job opportunity doors' to open up for me. I networked my way into every internship, externship, and post-grad job I ever had. All these grads who are complaining about not having a job are complete morons. Nothing is guaranteed in life, except death and taxes. I agree, it is much more difficult to get a 6 figure job coming from a low-tier law school but it is not impossible. Whether you are at Harvard or at TJSL, if you cannot network and if you are not flexible with the type of law you want to practice, then you entered the wrong profession. In order to be successful in the legal profession you need to know how to change with the legal landscape and learn to adapt. If you cannot do that, or if the thought of that puts you on 'edge,' then save yourself time, money, and sanity and go home.
ReplyDelete@ 8:34:
ReplyDeleteI agree completely.
Whether one attends HLS or TJSL, a wise student should begin taking the necessary steps to secure employment during the very first semester and throughout the duration of law school. Network, join student organizations, volunteer a few hours per week with a practicing attorney--anything and everything necessary to pad your resume and gain practical experience and professional exposure.
If you wait until 3L to really begin the job search in earnest, you're in trouble. You're already way behind the 8-ball. Other students (the wisest among you) will have devoted the previous 2 years forcefully injecting themselves into the legal community--like an uncontrollable parasite seeking a suitable host.
Law is no different from any other competitive job market. The people who hustle the hardest are the last ones standing when the dust finally settles.
Winners win for a reason. They refuse to quit--no matter the odds. They will not quit. Period.
Check out this shit:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1w_zChk28o&feature=related
Lol. I got 99 problems but a job ain't one.
What about your site ....
ReplyDeleteIn principle, the interface is nothing (although it is not important), but at the expense of information, even very good
How would you like to graduate top of your class, pass the Bar in the top 1 percentile, and not be able to achieve fulltime employment status ? Student loan payments exceeding $2,000 a month! Perhaps, if you were provided with realistic post graduate statistics that had not been falsified you would not have entered the field of law!!!!! This applies to all students who were LURED by the school into the program after the recession/depression. I hope they get every penny reimbursed!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIs there any update on the status of the case?
ReplyDeleteRealistically, unless you are a Tier 1 graduate, you might as well prepare yourself for life of self-employment. Forget law school stats - the only thing you are buying from your 3rd or 4th tier LS is the chance to obtain a license to work as an attorney. The rest is up to you. Some of the most successful attorneys in the country, the ones you see quite often commentating on FOX or CNN, came out of lowly lowly schools.
ReplyDelete