Saturday, February 19, 2011

Response to a critic

Most recently, a reader by the name of "Living well in California" posted a long criticism of this blog and the ideas set forth. In response, I have posted the comment below in its entirety and have responded accordingly. As a matter of policy I do not respond to trolls. However, this comment was a decent critique and as such deserves a proper response. I welcome constructive criticism at all times. Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. Proverbs 12:1.


As a graduate of a lower tiered school, I am sickened by this blog. I do not know which school you attended, but I received an excellent education. My professors were well-deserving of their salaries, and I do not feel “scammed”. You pay tuition to receive an education; you do not pay tuition to earn your dream salary upon graduation. Most students who graduate from any law school will not work at a large blue chip firm. If you thought that was your destiny, you were ill-informed. Please do not blame the law schools for your ignorance.

I, alongside many other lower tiered law school graduates, never intended to work at large blue chip firms. The majority of TTT students are fully aware of the fact that only graduates from the best schools go on to the best firms. However, we all believed that "midlaw" was a big possibility. For example, when people asked me where I wanted to practice, I would respond with "a mid sized firm, having anywhere between 8 to 25 attorneys, more or less." It is only upon graduation and the subsequent job search when TTT's realize that midlaw is extremely difficult to place in as most biglaw associates burn out from BIGLAW and downgrade to smaller firms.

This blog perpetuates the idea that graduates from lower tiered schools are less competent than graduates from top tier schools. I could be a spokes model for lower tiered schools. While I had an extremely difficult time obtaining a desirable job initially – mainly due to my inability to pass the bar exam (note: I do NOT blame my law school), things have worked themselves out. I work at a major San Francisco based company, earn a six-figure income, have 3 weeks vacation, and my hours are roughly 9-5.

God bless you for finding a good paying job with nice benefits, easy hours and 3 weeks vacation. If all TTT grads can find jobs like the one you described, then there would be no purpose for this blog. However, since there are thousands upon thousands of broke, struggling and unemployed graduates who are desperate and angry with their current situation, there is a demand for a forum where people can vent and feel some solidarity with others.

With regard to your assertion that "this blog perpetuates the idea that graduates from lower tiered schools are less competent than graduates from top tiered schools" it is the legal industry that perpetuates the idea, not the blog. I'm confident you have seen the job postings time and time again state in big bold letters "TOP TIER GRADUATES NEED APPLY ONLY." In addition, while some tier 4 grads may become better attorneys then some tier 1 grads, the statistics speak for themselves. Stanford law grads smash the California Bar Exam with pass rates in the high 90's while Western State, Whittier, Golden Gate, Thomas Jefferson, et. al., languish in the mid 50's. UGPA is much higher at tier 1's implying these students have studied harder than their tier 4 counterparts. In my humble opinion, I believe the biggest difference between tier 1 and tier 4 grads is work ethic, discipline, and a bit of IQ points. But mainly discipline as I know top tier lawyers who work much harder than I ever will but can never outsmart me in many facets of life.

Moreover, the tier system was developed as a result of the over supply of JD's. Because there are so many graduates flooding the market, employers utilize school rank in order to limit the amount of applicants. By reducing the amount of excess supply of attorneys the legal market will be able to find a somewhat healthy equilibrium with the result being less wasted time on the pursuit of diluted JD degrees. There is so much talent being misallocated in this country at the present time in pursuit of diluted degrees. When/if the proper correction takes place, the sooner this nation will be able to heal itself as proper talent becomes more properly allocated to areas of the economy that are being neglected. For example, consider the TTT law student that toils for 3 years learning abstract and outdated legal principles only to find out a few years later that his "skills" are not in demand because of the other 45,000 JD's vying for the 26,000 legal job openings. So many young people in this country working in pursuit of degrees which will yield them and society at large practically nothing.

Law school graduates can look outside the traditional arena of practicing law. There are alternative careers for law school graduates, and having a JD makes you a very desirable candidate. Here are some examples: contracts management, vendor management, contracts negotiation, attorney recruiting, legal placement. Also, a law school graduate could go into the assistant program at an entertainment or literary agency, with the intent of working up to be an agent.

I don't know where the fuck you found this bullshit idea but as far as I know the JD CLOSES DOORS. JD underground has more than enough information on this topic. Nuff' said.

It is VERY difficult to get your foot in the door, but once you do, you can have a very good life. Blogs like yours do not help the situation. These grads need to keep their spirits up and keep banging on doors until one opens. If you combine a JD with a good attitude, drive, personality, attractive appearance, and hard work, the opportunities will present themselves.

Blogs like mine serve a different purpose. I don't know if you have noticed but the mainstream media can be summarized as follows: happy happy joy joy happy happy joy joy. Unemployment falls SHARPLY to 9%! Core inflation is ONLY at .4%! The federal government is slashing up to $60 billion in federal spending!!! THE STOCK MARKET ROARS HIGHER EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!!!! IF YOU ARE UNEMPLOYED THEN YOU ARE A MUTANT FUCKTARD THAT DESERVES TO DIE!!!! LOOK AT KIM AND CHLOE KARDASHIANS AMAZING 20 TRILLION SQ FT HOMES!!!!

The purpose of this blog is to inform potential law grads of how terrible the legal job market is, especially for TTT grads. It is place where the dissafected can find solidarity and understanding with others in a similar situation. It is a place where people can vent against the utterly corrupt system which has crippled their lives. In fact, this blog is part of a nascent revolution against the current student loan laws which are unconstitutional and constitute peonage against the deliquent borrower. The blog speaks justice against institutions and individuals who are willfully and fraudulently harming students for their own financial and monetary gain.

Please put your efforts into motivating people and encouraging them to move forward with their careers. There are smart, amazing people graduating from lower tiered schools these days, and this blog is doing a disservice to us

I attempt to help people by getting them out of the "I'm such a fucking loser who needs to killself stage" to the "fuck the damn bastards that lied to me about job placement" stage. Anger is a good motivator. When people feel defeated and primarily blame themselves for their current predicament, it is difficult for them "to move forward with their careers." Thus, the blog. I attempt to educate people about how the economy works, how money is created, about the fraud that the law schools are engaging in and many other important things. Remember, the current narrative in this country is those who don't succeed are losers that deserve their fates and the winners are blessed with riches because they are so great. Not that there has ever been a truly fair playing field in this country, however, for a long time it was very possible for immigrants to come here, work there asses off, and accumulate great wealth. Fast forward to 2011 and you will see law graduates owing $200,000 in nondischargeable debt making $30,000 in a legal or non legal job. Something has obviously changed.

There are many things that are going terribly wrong in this country. But one issue that touches and concerns the lives of many people in our "subprime generation" is the Student Loan Slavery Act, et seq. So the question for you, LWIC and others who are like minded, is will you help your brethren in need or will you shoot the messenger?


  1. @Liz: Where are you in Washington? I'm in Spokane.

  2. "Blogs like mine serve a different purpose. I don't know if you have noticed but the mainstream media can be summarized as follows: happy happy joy joy happy happy joy joy. Unemployment falls SHARPLY to 9%! Core inflation is ONLY at .4%! The federal government is slashing up to $60 billion in federal spending!!! THE STOCK MARKET ROARS HIGHER EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!!!! IF YOU ARE UNEMPLOYED THEN YOU ARE A MUTANT FUCKTARD THAT DESERVES TO DIE!!!! LOOK AT KIM AND CHLOE KARDASHIANS AMAZING 20 TRILLION SQ FT HOMES!!!!"

    Hahahaha! Good one, Subprime!

  3. Great response to this troll, subprime! The fact is most American kids are financially illiterate before they enter law school. Many think, "I will go to TTT and graduate in the top 5 percent, get OCI summer clerkships, make law review, sip a margarita off a hot waitress's navel, and waltz into a prime job."

    Others have more realistic expectations, i.e. to become a lawyer. However, many of them do not take into account - PRIOR to law school - how they will pay back their $120,812.21 in student loans on a $45K job. Some idiots rationalize this underwater product with the following "logic": "Well, my goal was to be a lawyer, and I accomplished that. I don't care about money."

    Yeah, if you ever want to buy a house, get married or have kids, you will care about money. And I am not talking about $100K a year. I mean, you will wonder how you are going to pay for your child's visit to the clinic; how you will replace a filling in your teeth; how you will pay rent and keep your creditors at bay; how to keep food on the table; etc.

    At some point, money matters. It matters to one's partner/spouse/significant other. Even you are lucky - and are not married to a materialistic person - he/she will expect that you guys make enough to pay for essentials, and some extras.

    Law school should be seen PRIMARILY as a financial decision. Economics matters. Now, employers and even the military are looking at people's credit scores.

  4. I am a ’98 grad, so I come to you with life experience under my Prada belt. Hindsight is 20/20.

    After years of failing the bar exam, I finally passed and obtained a position at a mid-sized Worker’s Compensation firm – 11 attorneys. It was one of the most miserable, insane places on earth. Upon being fired after 9 months, the mentally-ill managing partner said to me, “Poor [LWIC], she is always a victim.” I thought to myself, “No, the victims are staying.”

    8 weeks later I started my non-attorney alternative career – I negotiate contracts. I found this job through my law school’s online career center. I worked at an aerospace company for years and subsequently banking institutions. I am SO, so grateful to be part of a large company and not a horrible toxic firm – not that they are all horrible.

    A JD will close doors – I have experienced that. But there WILL be more doors. It’s tough out there – I’m not saying it will be easy. I had a really, really awful time being a recent grad. Thank God that is over!!

    I do not think the unemployed recent grads are losers. I do not want them to blame themselves, but you also do not want to motivate them into a state of inertia. Please point the finger at the economy, not the law schools. When they find a job they like, they will be thankful for the JD. I am.

    I do not have a job to offer anyone, but if there is any way I can help, I will.

  5. bravo! your blog steered me away from law school.

  6. Living well:

    Take a look at tuitions at these schools. They have more than doubled since you graduated and in some places even tripled! When/if the schools start reporting REAL data and not Madoff style accounting I will lay off the schools.

  7. Hi Subprime,

    You are right; my law school's tuition has doubled since 1998. If an individual is hell-bent on having a house and 2 kids by the time he/she is 30, law school is probably not the best selection.

    So what is the alternative? What should a kid with a liberal arts degree do? I answered phones at a fancy law firm. One of my friends insisted daily that I was crazy for enrolling at a lower tiered law school, and I should instead try to marry one of our very wealthy clients.

    What advice would you give your early 20’s something sister with a liberal arts degree?

  8. I would tell her to join those out in the streets in Wisconsin.

    Where have all the jobs gone--long time passing.

  9. Er, well, ok, I will be the pig/jerk/dinosaur who finally says it, since I can't stand this anymore:

    the odds are much greater for an attractive chick to break into certain gigs than for dudes or homely chicks. Yes, looks matter, just like having, in certain instances, an uncle in the business, or having someone (ahem) "write a letter for you" also helps. We get it.


  10. Hey Suprime - does this mean that you won't vote for Obama in 2012?

    I graduated from a "top-tier" so-called law school. That is what I call it - I don't even call it a "school" without putting the "so-called" in front of it. Schools are supposed to be about teaching people, mental and emotional support, and selflessness. None of those characteristics apply to so-called law schools.

    I too cannot find a job - in fact, I don't even know where else to turn to try to even look for one. My career services treats me with no respect. I blame myself, but actually I blame 70% - the so-called school & the system, 30% myself.

    As for that poster who wrote in. She is all talk, no action. If she really cared, or really wanted to help, she would offer someone on here a job. Wow your life is who gives a sh*t? It is clear she has literally no idea how bad the job market is right now. In fact, if she knew your identity, or if Living Well in Cali knew it, they would ESPECIALLY not give you a job...that is just how people are.

    They can talk about relating bla bla bla till they're blue in the face. HEY C*NTLICKER, IF YOU WANT TO CHEER PEOPLE UP - JUST OFFER THEM A F*CKING JOB. Everything else is just bull****.

    And hey why don't you go vote for Obama again so that he can help the working class - I mean bail out wall street and illegal immigrants. Thought so.

  11. It's nice to see people who failed the bar and still got jobs. You could only be in one state, California.

    After failing the bar myself in California, I moved to Minnesota, where I passed on the first try. The bar passage rate here is around 90% for all takers, including TTTT folks, and around 99% for Tier 1 grads. If you mention having failed the bar here, people look at you like you're a "mutant fucktard" and would never consider hiring you. This of course compounds the difficulties finding work in an already atrocious job market.

  12. To anon @ 2:39 PM

    Sorry to hear about your job woes. If you are having trouble from the top of the totem pole, imagine the TTT proles on the bottom. Shit, at least 1/3rd of my class has either gone solo, is working retail and/or still haven't passed the cal bar.

    With regards to the US political structure, I believe it is rotten to the core with both parties sucking wall street penis. Bush bailed out the banks while Obama suspended the accounting rules (FAS 157). Obama plays golf with the US chief of operations for Union Bank of Switzerland while a US employee of that bank turned wistleblower sits in federal camp. With the federal gov spending nearly $4 trillion per year, that is toooo much money being controlled by only 535 crooks with 80 lobbyists per said crooks. I haven't voted in a long time with the exception of writing in Ron Paul in the latest election.

  13. Living well:

    You said,

    "So what is the alternative? What should a kid with a liberal arts degree do? I answered phones at a fancy law firm. One of my friends insisted daily that I was crazy for enrolling at a lower tiered law school, and I should instead try to marry one of our very wealthy clients.

    What advice would you give your early 20’s something sister with a liberal arts degree?"

    If I had the answer to that question I would be a billionaire lol. The only thing I can tell someone with a liberal arts degree that is considering law school would be to visit these blogs and for them to do their own due diligence. I would tell them that student loans are to be avoided like the plague.

    With regards to underemployed law grads, I'm still searching for answers. But any advice that you can give to those with JD's that are seeking non legal employment would be great, given that you were able to pull it off.

  14. The fact remains, regardless of what our very lucky and fortunate California friend says: a JD is a horrid hindrance in the non-law employment world for the vast majority of persons.

    Sorry, it is. You will be treated with incredulous, even rude, looks and comments from potential employers as to why you are not actively engaged in what THEY see as the lucratve practice of law. I don't care how chin-up, cheery, or happy-faced you are. If however you are lucky to have a friend or relative get you in somewhere, or you got a lucky break, congratulations, but that is not the norm for the vast majority who have a JD and are nonetheless forced o look non-law. The JD is LOATHED almost universally, in much the same way as lawyers generally are hated and scorned by the public. It is utterly useless for anything outside the practice of law, and for that, only marginal, as we all know law school does not teach one how to practice law.

    To analogize, one may find anecdotally one who survives a fall from atop a five-storey building; that does not make it a good idea for all to try it. Same goes for non-elite law school.

    {FYI: I would tell the liberal arts grad to seek a skilled, licensed plumber who needs a hard-working apprentice. That way, the liberal arts grad will always work and put food on the table, and likely earn more than the JD.}

  15. Subprime wrote: "Remember, the current narrative in this country is those who don't succeed are losers that deserve their fates and the winners are blessed with riches because they are so great."

    As Obama, Michelle, and Condoleeza Rice manifest, in America, the sky's the limit as long as one is willing to wholely and completely "SELL OUT"!

    "Yes We Can!"

    "America is not a collection of Red states, and Blue states. We're the United States!"

    [The crowd of shallow Wal-Mart shoppers breaks into thunderous applause, whoops, and farting.]

  16. [David Letterman joke]

    "When young people ask me for career advice, I always tell 'em to go where the jobs are....


  17. Hi Subprime,

    I would love to offer advice.

    Many large companies have contracts administrators, contracts managers, vendor managers, sourcing managers and procurement managers. In these positions you redline and negotiate boilerplate contracts and draft amendments and other contractual documents. You will find these positions in industries such as aerospace, software, semi-conductors, financial institutions, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, biotech, and electronics. More so now than over ten years ago, companies are hiring JDs and attorneys for these positions. The contracts are getting more complex because of regulatory issues and IP ownership issues. Also, because of the influx of JDs and attorneys looking for work, employers are finding them to be ideal candidates for these positions.

    Also, many large companies have contracts negotiators in the legal department. My company has 2 JDs and one attorney working as contracts negotiators. It’s a cushy job and they seem very happy. I am not in the legal department; I am a Senior Manager in Vendor Management. I work on vendor contracts, and I work in conjunction with the legal department – I am not below them. I do not manage people, so I have no job to offer. When the time comes for me to manage people, I will absolutely help out my own.

    The more you progress in contracts management or vendor management, the more desirable your opportunities. You can work for better and better companies. In my opinion, a director level position in one of these fields at a good company is completely on par with a corporate counsel position – and more fun. Vendors like to take you to good restaurants.

    Hope this info helps someone.

  18. Subprime made a great point in his video in an earlier post. The student loan companies tell you not to borrow more than how much you expect to make when you graduate. So why are law schools charging 180-200k for 3 years of law school tuition/living , when the majority of graduates will make only 40-50k a year when they finish? And that is if they are lucky to even find a job as an Attorney.

    Every law school's glossy admissions brochure is just as fradulent as financial statements from
    Enron. They express fradulent misrepresentation of the material facts to entice students to apply and enroll in their T3/T4 institutions.

    They promise jobs that pay 100k a year when most graduates struggle when they graduate. Most of these law students not "ill informed" as LWIC said, but rather they were FRAUDULENTLY misled by their law schools.

    If law schools truly cared about what was in the best interest of their students, they would tell them that less than 20% of all law school graduates start off at salaries of 100k or more a year as the NALP has stated.

  19. There seems to be a focus on T3/T4 law schools and their fraudulent statistics. The fradulent employment statistics are pimped around by T1 schools as well. As mentioned on this blog as well as other blogs dealing with the same subject matter, unless you are reading the emplyment stats of a TOP 10 school, you cannot trust a word that is published. Even top 10 schools are having problems getting their grads jobs. Remember how back in 2009 COLUBIA LAW...a top 5 school...was advising their graduating class to go to the UNDERGRAD career fare. The problem is systemic and even reaches all the way to the top.

  20. “I am a ’98 grad, so I come to you with life experience under my Prada belt.”

    As a 1998 graduate of law school, you must be nearly 40 years old. Yet, you still define success by pointing at the printed label on your belt buckle. You have the world figured out, don’t you?

    “You are right; my law school's tuition has doubled since 1998.”

    One of the many reasons that the predicament facing today’s graduates cannot be viewed through the same lens as your own situation. Here are some more reasons: presently, we are in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression; starting salaries—for those lucky enough to find employment—have remained stagnant for the last 15-20 years; the number of attorneys pumped out annually is nearly 12% more than when you graduated,; the 2005 BAPCPA has eliminated virtually any prospect of student loan debt relief,

    “Please do not blame the law schools for your ignorance.”

    It is you who is ignorant. These diploma mills pay big money to experienced marketing professionals to keep their money rolling in. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that you have volunteered to appear on your school’s website or marketing brochure. After all, a favorite technique of these pigs is to con people in with tales of anecdotal success (like yours). Worse yet, law schools have been intentionally marketing themselves with deceptive employment placement and salary statistics for years. They use these numbers to prey upon young adults who are already desperate. After all, many of the kids think to themselves “[W]hat is the alternative? What should a kid with a liberal arts degree do?” This is FRAUDULENT, morally inexcusable, if not criminal, behavior.

    “I do not have a job to offer anyone, but if there is any way I can help, I will.”

    Start by focusing on the crisis—legions of young adults being sentenced to lifetimes of debt slavery—instead of justifying your own decision-making. I get it; you need to show the world that a TTT grad is just as capable as a T-14 grad. It’s probably an insecurity that you can’t shake even despite the great job and “Living Well in California.” Who gives a shit whether this is true or not? Whether its fair or not, employers will take a T-14 grad over a TTT / TTTT grad any day of the week. That’s reality.

  21. Hi 11:35,

    Just for the record, I define happiness by the freedom to make choices – whether that is having 3 kids, giving money to charity, wearing designer clothing, driving your favorite German car, spending the summer in Tuscany or all of the above.

    And just for fun, I will agree with you. As a lower tiered graduate, your life will always suck. You will never find a job, relationship or any sort of happiness because a top tier grad will always be better than you. I am SO ridiculously insecure about being a lower tiered graduate that I go on websites and try to motivate similarly situated people to find work. How lame am I.

    FYI – some of my colleagues are much more recent grads that I. They are not motivating you because they are only 30. Being over 40 I have a sense of responsibility to want to give back.

    Just saying …..

  22. LWIC,

    What fucking planet are you on?

    Your definition of "freedom" and "happiness" is what's seriously wrong with this country. You are a pseudo-elite and you correctly, although impliedly, point out that there is a brewing class war in this country.

    Make no mistake that there are millions of people in America who are forced to choose whether to feed their children or pay the electric bill. They do not have the privilege nor will they EVER have the ability to choose between "designer" clothing or skipping over to Italy for a nice merlot.

    Class distinctions in this country are becoming more and more clear. You have those living in abject poverty or people like you. Instead of giving to "charity" why not ask why the charity is needed?

    Are we to simply resolve ourselves to the "well that's how capitalism works" mantra? "You win some and lose some". The masses grow weary in this country.

    Do you understand that there are no jobs? And no amount of a happy face or positive attitude will create them.

    Your "motivation" falls on deaf ears my dear and you will soon be hoisted by your own petard.

  23. Add on-

    I should also note that the meat in between pseudo-elites, such as LWIC, and those living in poverty (such as myself) lies the ruling class.

    Do you see the carrot LWIC? It's right in front of your nose--I know you can smell it..but you will NEVER be able to eat it....but just keep trotting around believing that it's possible.


  24. Living Well, it is awesome that you want to give back. It's also awesome that you have done so well for yourself - truly, I congratulate you and wish I could share your success. I am a JD from a "top 10" school (I realize that doesn't mean much anymore, but hey...). I'm also a married mother and work in a contracting-related facet of the medical field. If I told you how much I made, you'd be "shocked and awed." Let's just say it's not enough to wear Prada - hell, it's really not even enough to wear Ann Taylor without charging it! I looked for this job for a couple of years before finding it and I feel damn lucky to have it, especially since I live outside the "big city" so my kids don't have to attend school in the ghetto as that's where we could afford to live if we did live there. As a young mother, I had no idea that I wouldn't be a hot commodity in the legal field - and even in fields outside law as I was always perfectly open to alternative legal careers and most recently, to any career. I'm still a very attractive girl and used to be a real "hottie" - maybe that helped when I was single and the d-bags on the hiring committee still had high hopes that maybe I liked to "party" and had few principles, but that doesn't give me much quarter now. Long story short, I think it's very short-sighted right now to encourage ANYONE (top ten, top tier, low tier, etc., etc.) to attend law school given the fact that many of us could have gotten our current jobs with just an undergrad degree and would have saved ourselves six figure debt doing it. I have now come full circle - I make exactly what I did before starting law school so it's helped me exactly ZERO. It's great you've been able to work yourself up in your field and have a lot of experience now but things really ARE different in hiring. I try to keep my head up and have hope but I face the very real probability of insolvency and bankruptcy within the next 6 months if I don't find a better-paying job soon. My biggest regret in life is attending law school and that comes from someone who "did everything right" - did great in school, well in law school, kept a good credit score, got great reviews in my prior jobs, etc. My story is a true one and it even has a moral - kids (and ESPECIALLY non-traditional types like anyone over 25 or so, married or who has kids), I would strongly advise you not to attend law school. You can get where you're going without it. Wish I had.

  25. Really, really "no" jobs?

    I started my current position 1/31/2011. I was out of work for 7 1/2 months. I had lost my job due to an East-coast acquistion.

    And I am pretty sure that last night, my friend and I tipped the waitress, bartender and taxi driver well.

    I have to go now because I am getting my toes done. Oh, and I am pretty sure I will tip the manicurist well.

    No jobs......

  26. LWIC--you're a bitch.

  27. Hi 10:08,

    Point taken. Maybe now is not the best time to go to law school. But then again, are there jobs for undergrads?

    My purpose is to motivate people who already have JDs because very few people motivated me. One of my “best” friends told me that she had discussed my situation with the lawyers at her firm -- “They do not understand why you are even bothering to take the bar exam again. You went to less than mediocre law school, you have less than mediocre grades and you would be lucky to work at a slimy P.I. firm.”

    I am tying to offer hope.

  28. LWIC –

    It makes sense to encourage droves of today’s youth to waste three years of their lives reading archaic case law and accruing $100k+ in non-dischargeable student debt, right?

    After all, there are “jobs” as you point out. A J.D. is clearly a prerequisite credential in the fields of taxi driving, bartending and table waiting. Some top grads may come away with the greatest job of all—performing manicures on ignorant, out-of-touch, materialistic women.

  29. If you already have a JD, there is nothing wrong with bartending or waiting tables until you pass the bar or find a career position.

  30. LWIC is an ugly troll who has nothing else better to do, but cause havoc on this site.

    She/He even said in an earlier post, "Upon being fired after 9 months, the mentally-ill managing partner said to me, “Poor [LWIC], she is always a victim.”

    Are we really surprised that LWIC got fired? Even her own boss didn't take her bs, so take her comments with a grain of a salt.

    Everyone, just ignore LWIC, much like success has...

  31. Living Well in California,

    List your overall student loan debt, from undergrad and law school. Provide us with the interest rate info, as well. I am not requesting the name of your lender or any account info. I am simply asking you to furshish some basic figures. You are living in San Francisco, correct? That must be pricey.

    It would seem that you are underwater, with your loans - even with a "6 figure salary." By the way, is that supposed to intimidate or impress anyone? Also, if you are over 40, why does your image appear to be a woman in her late 20s/early 30s?!?! She dresses like a younger woman, too.

    If you have nothing better to do than to make up a profile and post asinine comments, I have a few suggestions: (a) talk face-to-face to actual people who are DROWNING in student debt; (b) quit talking out of your ass; (c) get a hobby; and (d) grow a spine and/or a pair of balls and stand up to this sick $y$tem.

    In sum, you are not helping the situation. Your "advice" is a joke, i.e. "Enjoy your freedom and happiness." Listen: happiness is a shared orgasm, winning a basketball game against co-workers, catching air in your friend's car, watching your team win the World Series, etc. It can be very fleeting. Try paying the bills with joy and happiness. See how your creditors respond.

    Quit providing false hope. If people want someone to blow smoke up their ass, they can watch Tony Robbins, evangelical preacher$, or Deepak Chopro ramble on about "positive things happen to positive people."

  32. Hi 10:58. You should not be surprised that I got fired from that crappy firm – I’m feisty and didn’t belong in that den of misery. The point is that I found greener pastures outside of working in a law firm.

    People, the only point I am trying to make is that if you have a JD and can’t find a job at a law firm, you might want to consider a career in contracts management. I’m not telling anyone to take out loans or go to law school. I am merely saying that if you already have a JD and need a job, try contracts management.

    Nandi, thank you for thinking I look young in the photo. That is a snapshot from opening day of the Del Mar Racetrack last July. I was 41. And if you think I do not look and dress like a 41 year old, you need to take a trip to San Diego.

  33. There is no way to change things - nor have any hope of making our lives better - through playing by the rules, and the political system itself is fully 'captured,' so political action is a useless illusion with regard to this issue.

    And as has been pointed out, the incentive system is all screwed up - meaning that it's in the best interest of the lenders (and their government enablers) to screw us and make it impossible for us to making a living and get out of indentured servitude.

    I agree with, and am a firm supporter, of the Debtors' Revolt idea. It's a really, really bad situation we face - and if you believe that somehow there's a solution to be had by "behaving" and playing their game, well, you're almost an *enabler*.

    I am agitating for debtors' revolt, and I have no problem with the idea of an Egypt-style uprising. I believe systemic COLLAPSE is one of the only ways out of this. Feel free to contact me further if you are like-minded. Our brave forebears would *not* have tolerated this abuse of power nor the insane rigging of the system - and resource inequality - we see today, and would probably call for acts of disruption if not hands-on "assertion" of our rights to, well, a future, a livelihood, and the ability to provide for our families.


  34. If you zoom in on LWIC's pic you can tell she is around the age of 40. I could tell because her skin is showing signs of flab. With that said, I still think she is hot and would not mind partying with her next time I am in San Diego. I have always been attracted to the materialistic girlie girl types who try to preserve themselves.

  35. A law degree is a hindrance for most people in the non-law employment world. If you make it work for you in the non-law world, it is because (a)your uncle got you the gig; (b) you have serious pre-law-school contacts/connections/experiences, or, (c) you hit the sack with someone in authority.

    Check out the views from a former biglaw associate:

  36. Anybody in the San Jose area? This company is hiring a Contracts Specialist. This job is perfect for a recent law school grad. I started my career in a similar type of role.

    Reply to: ________________________________________

    Summary: Responsible for reviewing, evaluating and ensuring construction contracts, sub-contracts and insurance requirements are being met. In addition, performs account receivable collections activities. Strong contract background required for this position.

    Duties and Responsibilities include the following.

    • Reviews construction contracts, issuing sub-contracts and insurance requirements
    • Issue and maintain subcontracts if needed for general contracts or new projects
    • Review insurance requirements for all contracts, make sure we are in compliance and work with controller and insurance agent if needed

    • Initiates appropriate collection activity through telephone contact and correspondence.

    • Maintains all accounting files by updating, purging and filing on a daily basis.

    • Prepares accounts receivable aging reports, reviews and updates as needed.

    • Creates and maintains proper response letters for various incoming correspondence.

    • Performs other related duties as assigned.

    Strong contract background Professionalism
    Oral & Written Communication Skills Excel and Word Expertise
    Excellent Customer Service

    Good Organizations Skills
    Ability to analysis data efficiently
    Time Management

    College graduate with concentration in business preferred. Business law, contracts experience, insurance familiarity and/or para-legal a plus.

  37. Wow, some very heated arguments out here. So LWIC, you are right, there are always doors. Yet, you have been able to live a good portion of your life before this depression hit (Yes, this is a depression). To your detractors, instead of blogging, they should be going out there and seeking the best means to generate income. However LWIC, I will offer my own insight. I used to volunteer for a Judge in Los Angeles. The message these posters are stating is about is true. It is rough out there, even for someone with connections like mine (my family is the Mexican version of the Kennedy's in Los Angeles). You dont have to believe me LWIC, just listen. Connections in Law maybe get you an interview. But, if you do not have those credentials, forget it. Why, because when someone does not have the pedigree or experience, it is the Hiring partners ass on the line. I guess what I am trying to say LWIC is fine, you made it, you're just being the kind of person we'd all like to see get hit by a bus. :}

  38. Hi Subprime, et al.

    I have been reading your blog for a few months now and must commend you on the good work you have done. It is bloggers such as yourself and Nando over at Third Tier Reality that are bringing to the surface the massive scam the American higher education system is and how it is literally robbing our generation of Americans of the ability to pursue our constitutional rights of life, liberty, and happiness.

    I think the time has come for us all to unite in the real world and use our law degrees to rectify this fraudulent scam that has been thrown upon us rather than just sit on the internet and moan. It seems to me that we can pursue several legal courses of action. The first being is to sue individual universities in tort for fraud (fraudulent inducement, etc) and in contracts as well. We can either sue for a single individual scammed or we can sue in a class action against a specific university…does not have to be a law school…undergrads have also been scammed and fraudulently induced by the employment data.

    Next, we can challenge the constitutionality of the “undue hardship” standard in discharging student loan debt. The undue hardship standard basically lets you off the hook if you drop dead or are permanently incapacitated. It is so damn narrow that it does not really serve as an exception. We can make both legal and public policy arguments. Some suggestions are as follows:

    1. Most students were fraudulently induced into taking out massive loans by interested universities and lenders who operate in tandem like a cartel by putting out, what they know or should know, is fraudulent employment data/statistics to induce students into enrolling and then making non-dischargable student loans easy for them to obtain without full/adequate disclosures….this is basically fraud…maybe even the argument for RICO can be made here….even though RICO has been applied mostly to organized crime situations, RICO can be used here so long as there is a criminal conspiracy involved…which I believe there is.
    2. We can claim that not allowing student loan debt to be discharged in BK is a violation of the 13th Amendment because it creates a situation of indentured servitude and quasi-imprisonment and therefore violates our basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    3. We can make a public policy argument that an entire generation of Americans, as a result of the non-dischargability of student loan debt, incurred as a result of school administrator and student loan lender fraud, will be unable to purchase homes, have families, and save for the future. This will have dramatic negative consequences for this country and will essentially render us a third world nation.

    If the civil rights movement was won based on theories that it violated the Commerce Clause, and if the right to an abortion (no politics intended) was the result of crafty lawyers arguing that substantive due process rights exist within the Constitution (when they do not), I believe that we have as good of a chance of prevailing in our legal arguments as the civil rights movement and abortion folks did. Afterall, this is going to be one of the big public issues of our day.

    I am willing to meet with anytime and anywhere with those who are serious in devoting their time, energies, and educations in pursuit of rectifying these wrongs done to our generation by greedy, unscrupulous, middle aged baby boomers who lived the good life and are denying us the same opportunity.

    Subprime and Nando, if you two are serious, I would like to contact you. I will have the id of HypocrisyBuster.

  39. JPR, HypocrisyBuster and others:

    I think the best way to organize would be by geographic region. I am in Southern California. Soon I will be creating a post with regards to this topic of organization.

    There are many blogs that are on the same page with education fraud and student loan reform. Eventually we will have to bring as many people together and start organizing. This is such a huge and complex issue that ideas will be required from many brilliant minds. Email me at to discuss further.

  40. LWIC,
    hi from Europe.
    There is nothing wrong with manual work if you cannot find a job. Indeed.
    However, education is not a "get a degree and buy Prada and be arrogant about it". In Europe, it still remains meritocratic institution that is not pursued with goals such as this.
    What I am trying to say is that state should try to ensure balance which means not ony controlling demand-offer but also that certain intellectual requirements are required. My guess is at least 30-40% of American undergrads would not pass most entrance exams to European universities.
    Hope? Please. Endless optimism is bad for your health.

  41. "Many think, 'I will go to TTT and graduate in the top 5 percent, get OCI summer clerkships, make law review, sip a margarita off a hot waitress's navel, and waltz into a prime job.'"

    Wasn't this the essence of LWIC's critique of this blog and others like it?

  42. And please stop with all this specious "organizing" talk. Most of your readers consider collective action of any sort to be evil socialism, and think that because they sit and stew alone in their basement banging out rants on scamblogs, they are some sort of Dagny Taggert-esque superman--rather than just another weak individual too scared to confront anyone. It's all falling apart, and they can't think of anything to do but whine about their law school and how Obammy won't forgive their student loans (you know--provide THEM good, valid government aid, not like the type those lazy welfare types are sucking from the system's teat).

  43. Are you afraid of the "organizing" talk going on here? You must be a TTT fraud peddling law school administrator afraid that by the time all the legal action is done you will be permanently out of a job and well known for what you are; a fraud peddler living off generational theft.

    No justice in this country (or any other) came from people sitting on their asses and griping on a blog. The civil rights movement came about after African Americans were finally fed up with Jim Crow laws and stood up. The abortion rights movement happened after women were fed up with back alley abortions. The anti-generational theft movement will happen when those victimized by the generational theft higher education and student loan scams will get fed up and use their educations for social change.

  44. Wow, LWIC truly is a wretched person, and fails to see how tasteless and utterly despicable it is to sit and brag and gloat about how she's sitting here getting her toes done and tipping the stylist and how wonderful her life is when many reading this blog are struggling to not have their heat cut off.

    But, of course, she's 'motivating' everyone else.

    Totally gross. And she doesn't even see it. She should be ashamed - but is probably immune to it.

  45. Hey Subprime, Congratulations on being mentioned in the Washington Post! Have a great day!

  46. I think it is very admirable that Subprime is trying to break down the cost of a legal education for prospective students. I think it is great that he points out it may take years to obtain a decent paying attorney position or something comparable. Prospective students should be well-informed about theses issues.

    I also think it is admirable to have a forum where job-seekers can vent about their woes in finding a job.

    However, using terms like “law school scam” and “TTT commode” does not help our perception in corporate America. A lay person hearing this would get the impression that we learned nothing in law school and would be incompetent in the practice of law. If I were a non-attorney and someone told me a certain law firm had attorneys from a “3rd Tier Toilet”, I would not give that firm my business.

    We cannot grow our posterity by eating our own young.

  47. ^^^^^Too late, 12:13. U.S. News and World Report already has that down pat. They are the ones who condemn law schools to tiers and ranks, not the scambloggers. Overall, law school IS a scam, because it does not teach anyone how to practice law. Can you imagine a physician who only learned how to "think like a doctor" in medical school? That's why the legal profession is a big joke now, not because of anything the scambloggers say. ^^^^^^^


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